IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: Business help
Topic Summary:
Created On: 14 May 2013 06:22 PM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
1 2 Next Last unread
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 14 May 2013 06:22 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



goldenboy1818

Posts: 503
Joined: 22 February 2011

Hi all I was really after some business advice/help. Im a sole trader and im doing really well. With some nice contracts locked in for the future im looking maybe at moving up amd taking people on. Im just not sure whats involved with this and is it a good business move. Iv heard you have to do monthly returns, and its a lot more involved and expensive. Im really unsure. I just wondered if there was someone on here that could really help and advise me. I would really appreciate it so much if maybe someone could help me in this area. Thank you
 14 May 2013 06:30 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



peteTLM

Posts: 3234
Joined: 31 March 2005

You have to do CIS returns if they are taken on as sub contractors. You get fined if you dont submit them in time. Other than being on time, its quite straightforward.
If you take them on as PAYE, then you dont do CIS returns for them, but here it gets complicated and you need an accountant, even it it just to initially advise on their tax codes and set up a framework for you. Remember that if they are PAYE, then you need to pay them a pension, sick leave, and if it comes to it , redundancy.
If you take someone on, you most probably are going to bust the VAT thereshold, so you need to get in the habit of doing your books every week, then every month, so you have the info automatically to do your quarterly VAT returns.

Have a look at Business link, they might have a free course for you.

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 14 May 2013 06:41 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



goldenboy1818

Posts: 503
Joined: 22 February 2011

So would you recommend just taking ppl on as subbys ? do I then have to register as a contractor etc ? thankyou very grateful
 14 May 2013 07:17 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



mikejumper

Posts: 1824
Joined: 14 December 2006

Originally posted by: peteTLM
....then you need to pay them a pension, sick leave, and if it comes to it , redundancy.

And maternity leave.
 14 May 2013 07:47 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



peteTLM

Posts: 3234
Joined: 31 March 2005

yes- you have to register for CIS, as both a sub- contractor yourself (or you under your own Ltd company) (usual situation) and as a contractor (like an employer to pay your peoples tax). Be careful to NEVER to use the term employed and sub contractor in the same sentence! !!

As subbies, you can hire and fire them at will as you like. If you paye them as a 'proper' job, you must pay them to sit there and do nothing if you run out of work. As you know, you have to pay subbies more than paye, as they take the responsibility of their own overheads.

Proper employees- you would need a disciplinary procedure in place, contract of employment, company policies etc etc.

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 14 May 2013 07:52 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



mrcornbeef

Posts: 248
Joined: 05 December 2005

My advice would be get a bit help with office side of things if you look about locally im sure you would get some help with payroll and paper work , i pay a local girl a few quid just for the payroll then pass this on to accountant , you could be putting lights up making more money that it would cost you trying get you head round payroll taxes etc ,and less hassle . plus if you are taking extra staff on you will have to work harder keeping the work come in.
 15 May 2013 02:39 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



MrP

Posts: 857
Joined: 24 March 2006

Goldenboy
Your doing well why do you want to change it, in today's economic climate just to keep your head above water is an achievement. Well done feller
Please believe me as a man who has been there and got the tee shirt looking back I was a lot happier being a one man band in charge of my own destiny
You don't have to aspire to be as big as No Good Bailey's nothing wrong with being a one man band, if it isn't broke don't fix it, your in a good position, read this and feel smug and rightly so.

MrP
 15 May 2013 03:17 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Pacific

Posts: 598
Joined: 29 January 2005

A tale I have related before, I was out in a local pub and bumped into a guy I worked for about 20 years ago, his firm had gone from employing a few sparks to be a major M&E contractor, he asked me what I was doing now, so told him I was self employed, he leaned over and whispered in my ear "don't ever employ anybody its not worth it"
 15 May 2013 06:31 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19900
Joined: 23 March 2004

he leaned over and whispered in my ear "don't ever employ anybody its not worth it"


That's because he doesn't want the competition - and i bet he said it just before he drove off in his 13 plate Porsche

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 15 May 2013 06:32 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for dickllewellyn.
dickllewellyn

Posts: 1222
Joined: 19 March 2010

A man was on holiday in the Carribean. He would sit beneath a palm tree leisurely enjoying a drink, and watch a local fisherman disapear for a couple of hours, and come back with dinner for the family.

After a few days watching the same procedure, the tourist struck up conversation with the fisherman. Why don't you stay out longer and catch more fish asked the tourist?

Why would I need more fish? I only need to feed my wife, my 3 children and myself. 2 fish is enough, and I can relax the rest of the day.

But if you caught more fish you could sell them said the tourist. Perhaps if you sold enough fish, you could use the money to buy a second boat and employ another fisherman.

Why would I need another boat?

With 2 boats, you could catch twice as many fish, and sell even more at market. Soon you could have a fleet of boats and many fishermen working for you.

Why would I want a fleet of boats and many fishermen?

Well. Then you wouldn't need to go fishing anymore. You could spend your days relaxing while your fishermen do the work.

But sir. I already spend my days relaxing!



I was told this story many years ago, before I was self employed. I have in that time gone from being a one man band, up to two permanent employees, a part time book keeper, and a handful of subbies, back to being a one man band again. I can honestly say that currently I couldn't be happier. Over time, my turnover climbed dramatically, and has since obviously come back down again. In all that time, with all the increase in turnover, my profit never really grew. This time last year, we had loads of work, I was running ragged keeping everyone busy, answering the awkward questions form clients, quoting, certificating, buying, paying, working 10 hours 6 days minimum, and I was earning a quarter of my highest paid permanent electrician.

I don't want to quash any dreams you have, you may well be the right type of person to make a go of it. I found I was a much better electrician than business man, and I'm now repaying a business loan, an overdraft, and credit card bills, trying to get back to where I was before I grew. The fantastic thing now is that I have more clients than time, so it gives me a chance to pick the ones I like, and apologise that I can't manage the others but have you tried this chap.....

Whatever you decide to do GoldenBoy, think first, go into it with eyes open, have a contingency plan, and bear in mind that employees will cost you immediately, but may not show any income for several months. If you have money behind you to use then fine, I looked to the bank and now owe them lots of money.

The one important lesson I learnt, was that whoever does the work for you, it's your name attached to it. You may find yourself in a position of doing a lot of damage control.

Best of luck with your chosen path, whatever you chose, and whatever happens, remember we are always here with opinions, and sometimes advice!

-------------------------
Regards
Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 15 May 2013 06:56 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19900
Joined: 23 March 2004

A man was on holiday in the Carribean. He would sit beneath a palm tree leisurely enjoying a drink, and watch a local fisherman disapear for a couple of hours, and come back with dinner for the family.


The true moral of that story Dick, is the the local fisherman didn't get to go on holiday though - he lived a hand to mouth existence

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 15 May 2013 07:19 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for dickllewellyn.
dickllewellyn

Posts: 1222
Joined: 19 March 2010

Originally posted by: OMS

The true moral of that story Dick, is the the local fisherman didn't get to go on holiday though - he lived a hand to mouth existence



Regards



OMS


As I clicked the submit button that did occur to me OMS! I still like the story though!

-------------------------
Regards
Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 15 May 2013 07:28 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



GB

Posts: 369
Joined: 04 September 2002

The old saying turnover is vanity, profit is sanity springs to mind, so do a realistic business plan projecting your business forward on organic growth and see if it can deliver what you want.
Dont be affraid to employ people or use subcontractors going forward as it is not rocket science, just more work and a little bit more learning.

Planning is the answer.

Or have you thought about linking with another business?? you may know somebody in the same boat.
 15 May 2013 07:29 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



GB

Posts: 369
Joined: 04 September 2002

So do I Dick.
And well told!!
 15 May 2013 08:17 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19900
Joined: 23 March 2004

For sure, Dick - just looking at the coin from the other side as it were.

The old saying turnover is vanity, profit is sanity springs to mind,


Totally agree with that one - don't be afriad to grow the business, but you have to be in the driving seat and have short, medium and long term objectives - and plans to get you there

No business is static, it's either contracting or expanding - you need to go with that, to manage it.

I'd whole heartedly look for strategic links with other businesses - it's the way foward in my opinion

Good luck whatever you decide

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 15 May 2013 08:29 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Pacific

Posts: 598
Joined: 29 January 2005

Originally posted by: OMS

he leaned over and whispered in my ear "don't ever employ anybody its not worth it"




That's because he doesn't want the competition - and i bet he said it just before he drove off in his 13 plate Porsche

I did take a contract of him once He sold the firm for several zillion shortly after our encounter


Regards



OMS


 15 May 2013 08:33 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19900
Joined: 23 March 2004

I did take a contract of him once He sold the firm for several zillion shortly after our encounter


LoL - well, that's basically all his profit based on the increasing turnover

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 15 May 2013 08:40 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for dickllewellyn.
dickllewellyn

Posts: 1222
Joined: 19 March 2010

Originally posted by: OMS

For sure, Dick - just looking at the coin from the other side as it were.


Ever the engineer. It's like my stock answer to the glass half empty vs half full quandry. The glass is simply bigger than it needs to be!

-------------------------
Regards
Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 15 May 2013 09:08 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



Zs

Posts: 3047
Joined: 20 July 2006

Goldenboy, Well done. Especially in this climate.

There is room in the market for another electrical contracting business so why not?

I recently became a limited company....£160 and a one hour meeting. Then I became registered in both directions with CIS...ten minutes on the phone and all sorted.

I have a very good accountant in terms of the paperwork but he's not hot on giving advice and teaching how to run a company so there has been quite a bit of evening research. Not too bad though and I am glad I did it.

For a while I had a lad working with me but I would not do that again. Being sure of the work coming in, over seeing, teaching and dealing with a lad who has a hangover.. It was an added pressure and I think it prevented me from developing naturally in our industry. It was an installation business and had to remain so while I had a bloke to pay.

So nowadays, if I need help I employ subbies for it and pay their invoices etc. If I am the subby then my tax is (perhaps) deducted by the contractor and my accountant sorts out the numbers at the end of the year. My gut tells me that to go for expansion is absolutely the best way, but to keep it as sub contracting for a while and see how you go.

I had a conversation with one of you lot recently. He is a senior player in engineering and is overworked, over demanded and works long hours. Probably the only indispensable man in business I have ever met. We all work ridiculous hours out here. I've got this thing I say to him about remaining free and it usually goes along the lines of valuing freedom more than security. On that day I was threatening to pack it all in and go off to make earrings out of sea shells and quality street wrappers so that I could sell them in the ticket office of a traveling circus. He told me he was fed up and so on, and said 'D'you know what job I'd like to have? I'd like your job'.

One day on the tools, the next inspecting, the next designing, the next painting or drawing. Absolutely no security, it could all go belly-up at a moment's notice but very, very, free. I can always go busking I suppose.

So, I think your plan to expand is brilliant and I wait for you to have a tag line on here outlining the services of your empire. I reckon, find a team you can trust and who you can call as required, then see how it goes before deciding to employ fully with all the responsibilities. I enjoy the concept of the quality street wrappers and sea shells and that is what suits. But my turnover is restricted to how much I charge for one person and a set number of hours in a day. But then, nobody else can balls it up for me and cause complaints or RCD tripping issues in my clients' houses.

Business plan first. Work out the numbers. Your bank will help you to prepare that. Then, get an accountant and get Limited. Do not be daunted by the paperwork. Lots of people have done it before you and there is help out there.

Zs
 15 May 2013 09:30 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for leckie.
leckie

Posts: 2025
Joined: 21 November 2008

A bit of advice.
If you take on people on a sub-contract basis the tax man will be wanting to check the employment status of these contractors. Check this out with your accountant as this can lead to some serious problems. I jest not, make sure you understand this fully.

If you we're to decide to employ people on the books then again understand what's involved. The sick pay thing isn't too bad, it depends on the contract of employment. You only have to pay Statutory Sick Pay, check that out. Holiday pay is a massive thing as we'll as Employer NIC. This adds the best part of 20% to what you actually pay the employee.

Having said that, do not be afraid to grow your business. If the name of the game is to make money then you will make more money if you grow you business providing you understand the extra cost involved and the customer base that employ you can take this cost and still show you a profit. Bad debt is also a massive enemy.

Good luck Goldenboy, my thoughts are make sure you business knowledge is good and go for it.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Business help

1 2 Next Last unread
Topic Tools Topic Tools
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.