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Topic Title: Supposed cost savings as a result of the changes to part P.
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Created On: 10 May 2013 11:04 AM
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 10 May 2013 11:04 AM
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sparkingchip

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The cost of part P for electricians was spread across all the notifiable jobs being the notification fee plus a percentage of the overheads being annual fees, taking part in a assessment, documentation etc.

Now there are fewer notifiable jobs the overheads on these jobs has increased, therefore the costs have significantly increased for notifying work.

This completely contradicts the message we are getting from the government and scheme operators.

To fully illustrate this point kitchen fitters can carry out electrical installation alterations and additions in a kitchen with absolutely no part P associated costs at all, yet if I run in just one cooker circuit for them I have to be part of a scheme, pay annual fees, undertake assessments etc.

I am now at a point where I am being penalised by these changes financially, but I am being told I am better off.


RnR was muttering he didn't know where I was coming from with my comments in the post about being prosecuted for causing an electric shock, well I have always supported part P, but now I think it is time to scrap it and get rid off it because it has been trashed to the point of not being fit for purpose.

Andy
 10 May 2013 11:34 AM
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daveparry1

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It does seem to going that way Andy,

Dave.
 10 May 2013 12:14 PM
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John Peckham

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Andy

I think you are flying kites?

Assuming you are doing the same number of jobs each year you will save the cost and time of notifying a good number of jobs over previous years? You are still spreading the cost of your club membership over the same number of jobs. All domestic installation work has to still comply with the requirements of the Building Regulations but there is a reduced requirement for the bureaucratic process to notify.

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John Peckham

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 10 May 2013 12:41 PM
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sparkingchip

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Take a kitchen refit that has electrical work to be undertaken, to the value of say £500.

Kitchen fitter quotes for electrical work as part of a kitchen refit without any part P overheads to include.

Part P registered electrician then prepares a competitive quote for the same work, now it doesn't have to be notified but he is still going to include the overhead for the registration he has not used say £ 5.00 per day and the labour 1st and 2nd fix takes up the best part of two days, so that's a tenner out off his labour of £ 300 or potentially a week off work every year!!!!

Now I'm being told to upsell myself because I'm a scheme member, but the kitchen fitter got in there first and quoted the kitchen fit inclusive of all electrical, plumbing, gas and building work. So the electrician may not even get to quote the work anyway as there is no longer any need to get a registered electrician in.

I know I still have the overhead cost of the van, insurance etc if I decide to take a day off, but that's the thing isn't if you decrease the hours worked or the types of job a particular overhead can be applied to the cost per hour or job of the overhead increases.

Andy

Edited: 10 May 2013 at 12:48 PM by sparkingchip
 10 May 2013 01:00 PM
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OMS

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So what's the value added to your business by being a scheme member - I would have thought, given a general cross section of the population, that a reasonable number of potential customers would opt for a person registered with a scheme than one who isn't - so before you see the fee as a disbenefit, you also nee to work out if it's a benefit.

Put in context, my annual fees for IET membership CIBSE membership, EC registration, Energy assessor, BREEAM assessor etc etc probaly cost a bit more than Part P membership - but they are a valuable selling point when bidding and I (or the company) estimate I gain more work because of them than they cost to me (or actually my company)

Regards

OMS

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 10 May 2013 01:05 PM
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rocknroll

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RnR was muttering he didn't know where I was coming from with my comments


I was just pointing out that Part P was not a regulation, the statute is the Building Act, the laws are the Building Regulations and the approved documents A-P are not definitions of the law, nor do they tell you what you must, or must not, do. Instead they give guidance on ways in which the law can be satisfied. They do point out that you are not obliged to adopt any solution contained in them if you prefer to meet the requirements in another way, but that said they are useful as they contain common sense advice and often there is no good reason not to adopt the solutions they contain. There is no Part P offence as such prosecution takes place under Regulation 7 of the Building Regulations and this is outlined in the Part P document.

The latest information on the NPV suggests that it does not meet the criteria for de-regulation and there is a possibility that in 2014 notification could be further reduced where your electrical certificate could be evidence of compliance with the Building Regulations with the option that if the owner required an official Building Regulations Certificate then this can be issued for a cost-effective sum on production of the appropriate certificates from the contractor.

As I pointed out a few posts ago a recent survey of 600 units (592 + 8 spoiled surveys) comprising of developers, builders, architects, surveyors, contractors and specialist trades, the contractors and specialist trades voted in favour of self-certification and the rest voted in favour of third party certification, the other problem here is whilst we are supportive of voluntary registration how can we flout EU and common laws by putting up a barrier between contractors who are not registered having the equivalent experience and paperwork as one who is voluntarily registered, the original ethos of third party certification was to capture DIYers and those like kitchen fitters who did not have the particular test equipment and certification to competently test.

The general feeling is that third party certification is not going to be that big an issue with the majority of contractors not wishing to take up the opportunity and concentrate on their everyday work, the general feeling we have is that those who do will mimic the MOT scenario, those who are kinder and cheaper will succeed over those who are tougher and more expensive.

regards

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leave nothing but footprints!"
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"Oh! The drama of it all."
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 10 May 2013 01:14 PM
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sparkingchip

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"there is a possibility that in 2014 notification could be further reduced where your electrical certificate could be evidence of compliance with the Building Regulations with the option that if the owner required an official Building Regulations Certificate then this can be issued for a cost-effective sum on production of the appropriate certificates from the contractor. "

I thought that was supposed to be the piece of paper posted out to the customer by the scheme operator as a certificate of notification by the scheme operators after you made your notification.

Andy
 10 May 2013 01:41 PM
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rocknroll

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I have no idea how this arrangement will pan out with regards to whether you are a registered competent person or non-registered competent person, the ultimate objective is to reduce the costs further to local authorities and the consumer by removing or reducing the initial contact.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 10 May 2013 01:52 PM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

The cost of part P for electricians was spread across all the notifiable jobs being the notification fee plus a percentage of the overheads being annual fees, taking part in a assessment, documentation etc.



Now there are fewer notifiable jobs the overheads on these jobs has increased, therefore the costs have significantly increased for notifying work.



This completely contradicts the message we are getting from the government and scheme operators.



To fully illustrate this point kitchen fitters can carry out electrical installation alterations and additions in a kitchen with absolutely no part P associated costs at all, yet if I run in just one cooker circuit for them I have to be part of a scheme, pay annual fees, undertake assessments etc.



I am now at a point where I am being penalised by these changes financially, but I am being told I am better off.





RnR was muttering he didn't know where I was coming from with my comments in the post about being prosecuted for causing an electric shock, well I have always supported part P, but now I think it is time to scrap it and get rid off it because it has been trashed to the point of not being fit for purpose.



Andy


What I dont understand from what I am reading from your post is why do 'kitchen fitters' not have to comply with the 7671? Are they exempt from any wiring within the kitchen area?

Tom

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 10 May 2013 02:01 PM
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sparkingchip

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John Prescott and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (remember them) said there should not be any cost to the consumer as the electricians would only have to do what they should have done anyway.

They then set the schemes up without the local authorities receiving any of the notification fee to cover the cost of their involvement.

The local authorities then initially received the notifications by fax and shredded them in some council areas, because they could not deal with them.

All stupidity.

If the government want to cut the cost to the LA either they have to get a share of the notification fees or the scheme operators have to do all the work the same as with the gas scheme.

Or just scrap part P and level the playing field for those carrying out domestic installation work, either everyone should be in or out, not half shelling out a £1000 a year and the others nothing.

Andy
 10 May 2013 06:16 PM
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dickllewellyn

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I for one am quite pleased with the amendments. I will no longer have to worry about doing little jobs I don't want to do, because an unregistered person can and will do it for less. That allows me time to give a better service to my long standing customers, and allows me to work smarter due to not squeezing in all the little odds and ends jobs due to the fact I can't say no! Lets face it, kitchen refurbs aren't usually the best jobs in the world, particularly not if working for a kitchen fitter! I'd much rather be casually looking after a country estate or a farm and being able to attend when required. I've had a lovely day today replacing underground joints and lighting transformers, just across the fields from RAF Odiahm, basking in the sun (most of the day) and watching the lads learn how to fly chinooks round and round, sometimes with crates suspended beneath. You won't get kitchen fitters competing against me on that job I'm sure!

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Richard (Dick)

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 10 May 2013 06:27 PM
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OMS

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Impressive things aren't they - we are just up the road - you could have popped in for tea and stickies -

OMS

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 10 May 2013 06:57 PM
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whjohnson

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Sparkingchip.
Part P is essentially whithering on the vine just as I predicted it would way back in 2005.
Not wishing to put words on R&R's lips, but read between the lines of what he is saying in his posts.

My interpretation is: 'Do a good job, ensure that you comply with the wiring regulations, and registered or not, no awkward questions shall be asked in future when it comes to what has, and what has not been 'Notified'.

The Govt have no financial resources to throw at it, and neither do the LAs.

ERGO: Scheme member or not, comply with the requirements of the wiring regulations and all will be well.

All you have to do is what the wiring regs tell you and issue the paperwork.
This is all the potential house seller needs.
A PIR (or whatever they call it these days) can always be done prior to selling up.

Sit back and save yourself the £1K a year and spend it on something nice instead.

After all, it's what everyone else has been doing for years now.

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Edited: 13 May 2013 at 12:15 AM by whjohnson
 10 May 2013 08:25 PM
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mikejumper

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip
They then set the schemes up without the local authorities receiving any of the notification fee to cover the cost of their involvement.

Although what they've been charging non-registered electricians and DIY'ers for building compliance certs.has probably compensated for that.
 10 May 2013 11:22 PM
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dickllewellyn

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Originally posted by: OMS

Impressive things aren't they - we are just up the road - you could have popped in for tea and stickies -



OMS


If only I'd known. I'm back to doing my own digging now my lad has left, and I could have done with the sugar. I'm not used to it again yet!

I do like watching those flying pigs, I often get the apaches too over the other side of the county from the army air corps at Middle Wallop. I happened upon one in a clearing at Micheldeaver Woods a few weeks ago, I stood watching for ages as it hovered between the trees!

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Richard (Dick)

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 10 May 2013 11:44 PM
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sparkingchip

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went on a IET local group visit to see the Horsa glider at RAF Shawbury and there was a Chinook being prepared for service in the same hanger, the engineer asked if we wanted a guided tour, a offer that was accepted.

It definitely looks like the 1960's Vietnam veteran it is.

Andy
 14 May 2013 09:34 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: OMS

So what's the value added to your business by being a scheme member - I would have thought, given a general cross section of the population, that a reasonable number of potential customers would opt for a person registered with a scheme than one who isn't



One of the added values of membership of a CPS is it can put a sole trader on a equal plateau to a large nationwide firm, such as britishish gas who can repair your faulty light switch as advertised on TV from as little as £110. The unfair thing is a sole trader has to pay the same fee as a large corporation to join the CPS - not all sole traders wish to go about scaremongering their customers into having additional, possibly unessacesarry works carried out like the bonus led BG team - some of us just want to earn a living!
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