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Topic Title: Street furniture- Lighting columns
Topic Summary: o lighting columns which have no protection around them require RCD protection
Created On: 01 May 2013 09:03 AM
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 01 May 2013 09:03 AM
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adammid

Posts: 67
Joined: 02 November 2010

Do lighting columns installed in a car park between parking bays which have no protection around them such as bollards require RCD protection?
 01 May 2013 09:19 AM
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Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19659
Joined: 23 March 2004

Nope

You should consider the impact or collision risk both to the column and to the vehicle but you normally wouldn't have RCD protection on a lighting column in a commercial set up - you may consider it for a domestic arrangement.

Unless for some reason you have a TT external lighting supply of course, then you would have RCD protection - but not normally at 30mA for additional protection.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 01 May 2013 09:24 AM
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adammid

Posts: 67
Joined: 02 November 2010

Many thanks
 01 May 2013 09:31 AM
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jcm256

Posts: 1866
Joined: 01 April 2006

I would be surprised that the men/woman who sits around a table writing the regulations discussed that to be included in BS7671. As a professional, you can flout the established conventions and make up your rules as you go along.
 01 May 2013 09:54 AM
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Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19659
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Originally posted by: jcm256

I would be surprised that the men/woman who sits around a table writing the regulations discussed that to be included in BS7671. As a professional, you can flout the established conventions and make up your rules as you go along.


what established convention ?

table 41.1 suggests to me that disconnection only need occur in <0.4 seconds

There are no sockets involved

Streel lighting colums aren't generally mobile.

in a private car park, they are not street furniture but even if considered as such, again no RCD requirements and actually reduced bonding sizes if using PME. It's not lighting in a kiosk or similar for example so 559.10.3.2 isn't applicable

street lighting dsign is pretty unified when it comes to design solutions - there is no need to flout anything really

regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 26 February 2014 07:25 AM
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JulietScanlon

Posts: 1
Joined: 26 February 2014

They should have grounding or RCD protection definitely.
Link removed

Edited: 01 March 2014 at 04:45 AM by JulietScanlon
 26 February 2014 08:59 AM
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anastasis

Posts: 583
Joined: 01 September 2009

Originally posted by: JulietScanlon

They should have grounding or RCD protection definitely.


Eh? "Grounding" and "RCD protection" are two completely different things.

And you offer no explanation. What matters is not what you think, but what the regs (BS7671, EAWR, etc) say.

And to respond to a previous comment, no, you can't flout the established conventions and make up your own rules. Departures from BS7671 have to provide an equivalent degree of safety. Being a professional means that you follow the regulations, even if you disagree with them
 26 February 2014 09:11 AM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11442
Joined: 13 August 2003

They should have grounding or RCD protection definitely.

They'd need adequate protection from electric shock - an RCD alone (in the UK) isn't considered adequate for that. Usually it would be earthing and automatic disconnection of supply (by fuse, circuit-breaker or RCD), or double (or reinforced) insulation (which requires neither earthing nor RCDs).
- Andy.
 26 February 2014 05:03 PM
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SKElectrical

Posts: 910
Joined: 01 February 2009

I'm subbing on a very large civil contract - bus shelters and tram shelters. ALL have RCD protection and I believe this is standard installation practice throughout the country. They are one of the biggest installers of this kind in UK and beyond.
I think the use of RCD is totally unnecessary and wonder about the state of the mechanical condition of an RCBO when kept in covered outside conditions.

From what i can see there are no electrical design engineers and this is why they are installed. Maybe there is an argument that RCD protection is a good idea as the street furniture can be sat on and leant against (its all metal), but i don't buy it.

Where there is any amount of water ingress leading to moisture within the control gear of a light fitting an RCD is likely to trip and this is a major problem. I by far prefer the design of a BS 88 fuse.





Originally posted by: OMS
There are no sockets involved


Sometimes there are.
 26 February 2014 05:22 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11442
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ALL have RCD protection and I believe this is standard installation practice throughout the country.

Due to BS 7671 559.10.3.2 probably.

I think the use of RCD is totally unnecessary

I'm not so sure - shelters seem to get a lot of damage - both from vandalism & vehicle impacts - it's not that uncommon to see illuminated advertising panels with their innards accessible or wiring showing where tracking displays have been removed for maintenance. Then of course you get a lot more people - especially bored children - waiting around bus shelters than you do your average lamp post and they're more likely to be leaning against the structure or touching the metal timetable frames, or even sat on the built-in (often metal) seating.
and wonder about the state of the mechanical condition of an RCBO when kept in covered outside conditions.

There I think you might have a very good point. Hopefully someone somewhere is keeping RCD test results....

- Andy.
 26 February 2014 05:57 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 8843
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Gosh you newbies love your RCD's and believe that everything that moves should have one, car parks and open spaces are high on violent crime in various forms, public lighting should be designed with integrity of supply in mind and this is rarely achieved using RCD's for various reasons, damp, atmospheric conditions etc; the incidents of people getting harmed from lamposts that have become live due to a fault are very rare but the incidents of people being harmed by others is very high, so sometimes personal safety against others overides it all.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 26 February 2014 06:06 PM
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OMS

Posts: 19659
Joined: 23 March 2004

The RCD protection for lighting is only for luminaires installed in telephone kiosks, bus shelters etc, Rock - we can still put column lighting up and have a 5 second disconnection time - just to wake up the drunks leaning on the lamp post

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 26 February 2014 06:24 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 8843
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Originally posted by: OMS

The RCD protection for lighting is only for luminaires installed in telephone kiosks, bus shelters etc, Rock - we can still put column lighting up and have a 5 second disconnection time - just to wake up the drunks leaning on the lamp post

Regards

OMS


LOL Aint that the truth.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 26 February 2014 06:31 PM
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anastasis

Posts: 583
Joined: 01 September 2009

Originally posted by: rocknroll
...public lighting should be designed with integrity of supply in mind and this is rarely achieved using RCD's for various reasons, damp, atmospheric conditions etc


The way things are going, I expect Amendment 4 (or the 18th edition) will require the use of Gewiss-style auto reclosing RCDs!!
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