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Topic Title: Are ceiling roses bad?
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Created On: 29 April 2013 07:18 PM
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 29 April 2013 07:18 PM
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jencam

Posts: 608
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Are ceiling roses with the internal terminal block a bad design? The concept works well if you have a hanging light and want to use the one that is fitted but if you want to install a ceiling mounted light, or change a boring white ceiling rose to a decorative one, then it is a right fiddle of a job having to make the right connections with three wires that look the same. Most people end up calling an electrician.

A better design would be to have the three wires connected using a terminal block behind the ceiling with a fourth wire coming down through a hole in the ceiling for the light. The wire is terminated in a small socket and the light fitting has a short length of wire terminated in a plug. Changing a light fitting will now be a quick and easy job that most residents will be able to do themselves with the minimal risk of an electric shock. This arrangement is found in a small number of buildings - and has probably been co-invented - but why is it so uncommon?
 29 April 2013 07:48 PM
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impvan

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Like the Lewden Maestro, or the Luminaire Support Coupler (c.1985) or the original Rock/Ashley lighting plug (c.1930)?

Or rather than poking wires through the plasterboard, just install a circular dry ling box in the ceiling - plenty of space for your terminal blocks, and totally flush to the ceiling, and a hole big enough to pull through that missing 1.5 once it's all decorated...
 29 April 2013 07:56 PM
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perspicacious

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I used to give the new house or rewire client a Crabtree 5861 ceiling rose with the instruction to make sure that they choose a decorative fitting with a plate that covers the rose (and one that they can at least leave one link in the drop chain without hitting their head on the fitting)

The M4 screws are at the same centres as all the "hoops" I found and I recall rated at 10 kg.

Regards

BOD
 29 April 2013 07:59 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: jencam

Are ceiling roses with the internal terminal block a bad design?

Not really - they are "fit for purpose", cheap and reliable.

The concept works well if you have a hanging light and want to use the one that is fitted

as I said, fit for purpose.

but if you want to install a ceiling mounted light, or change a boring white ceiling rose to a decorative one, then it is a right fiddle of a job having to make the right connections with three wires that look the same. Most people end up calling an electrician.

OK - not easy for a DIY, but that's why we have electricians - they can determine what the three wires are for


A better design would be to have the three wires connected using a terminal block behind the ceiling

So not really accessible for inspection without lifting the floor above - you also have to remember that the terminations would have to be made prior to fitting the ceiling or flooring - the industry tends towards a first fix aphase with cables and flush boxes being installed and a second fix phase with the electrician returning after "wet trades" have finished to fit ceiling roses and other accessories.

with a fourth wire coming down through a hole in the ceiling for the light. The wire is terminated in a small socket and the light fitting has a short length of wire terminated in a plug.

Might I suggest that you try a google for a luminaire supporting coupler. Your suggestion appears to have no means of supporting the mass of the luminaire

Changing a light fitting will now be a quick and easy job that most residents will be able to do themselves with the minimal risk of an electric shock.

A luminaire supporting coupler would allow the DIY changing of the "plug" and simply plugging back in without distrubing "fixed wiring" - notwithstanding the usual dimensional incompatibility introduced by luminaire manufacturers

This arrangement is found in a small number of buildings - and has probably been co-invented - but why is it so uncommon?

It's found in most commercial buildings and is something of an indstry norm outside the domestic sector.

It's down to flexibility - you don't need that flexibility in a domestic as you rarely have that much internal reconfiguration.

I guess, at the end of the day it's about cost - do you equip every home with a dimensionally compatible plug and socket arrangement on the off chance there are a small few who want to change pendants (particularly given the preponderence to downlighters) and either can't or wont DIY and need to call an electrician.



It could be argued that the proposal just simply seeks to deny work to an electrician in what are a small number of instances - would you also suggest such plug and play solutions for tap washers or other fixed elements of the home.

It's all "do able" just at an initial cost that is often not realised as a future return on that investment.

regards

OMS

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 29 April 2013 09:43 PM
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jencam

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It is not a luminaire supporting coupler because the plug and socket does not take the weight of the light fitting. It is either fixed to the ceiling or supported using a bracket, hook, or non-electrical ceiling rose. The aforementioned plug-in ceiling roses are unsuitable for most light fittings that are flush with the ceiling.
 29 April 2013 10:06 PM
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slittle

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You can't change them, I enjoy the phone calls from friends that start "I've taken a light down and there were three red and three black wires (because they lost the sleeving)" and end "I've now got no lights"


Stu
 29 April 2013 10:08 PM
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stateit

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Think I might go and invent the 'three-plate' switch so the wiring can be tidily done at the switch leaving just one cable to go to the luminaire...

DOH!! Now you all know my idea...

-------------------------
S George
http://www.sg-electrical.com
 29 April 2013 10:54 PM
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aligarjon

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Originally posted by: stateit

Think I might go and invent the 'three-plate' switch so the wiring can be tidily done at the switch leaving just one cable to go to the luminaire...



DOH!! Now you all know my idea...


I must admit thats how i do most now on extentions/ new builds as its far easier when customers turn up with these weird and wonderful light fittings.

Gary

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Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 30 April 2013 12:02 AM
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alancapon

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I still preferred the system in my last house. One large junction box at the top of the stairs for the downstairs lights, one in the roof for upstairs. Each light and switch had a cable back to it - simple! When decorating, you could easily connect the light in that room to a different switch while wallpapering.

Regards,

Alan.
 30 April 2013 07:52 AM
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dickllewellyn

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Originally posted by: alancapon

I still preferred the system in my last house. One large junction box at the top of the stairs for the downstairs lights, one in the roof for upstairs. Each light and switch had a cable back to it - simple! When decorating, you could easily connect the light in that room to a different switch while wallpapering.



Regards,



Alan.


My preferred approach too. Going backwards in some ways, but so flexible!

Better still, instead of oodles of three cores from joints to lots of switches for multiple way switching, bung cat 5s in and fit a smart home system that can also control the likes of heating and security etc... I worked out on a recent build that it would have been actually marginally cheaper that way, and done away with big 12 gang switch panels and dimmers!

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Richard (Dick)

"Insert words of wisdom and/or witty pun here"
 30 April 2013 10:06 AM
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AJJewsbury

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the Luminaire Support Coupler (c.1985)

I tried some of the MK LSCs in probably the 1990s - and to be honest they were a bit of a disaster. The concept was OK but the manufacturing was awful. They were flimsy, the loop terminal popped out when you tried to tighten it, and the plug was so stiff to slide out you risked falling off the ladder when trying to take a light down. Shades of things to come perhaps.

Another manufacturer (I can't remember which) has a plug & turn system - which if the plastic locating pin got broken you could insert in the wrong position and connect the light's c.p.c. to the fixed wiring L.

Still, roses are better than some continental practice, which seems to consist of a picture hook, a bit of plastic with a couple of holes in it to thread the flex through and hang off the hook, dangling terminal block and a cover that just slides up the flex and is held against the ceiling by friction.
- Andy.
 30 April 2013 09:19 PM
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leckie

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The 3 plate switch has already been invented. Hager have a neutral loop-in terminal on there switches now, we'll for about 2 years actually.
 30 April 2013 09:23 PM
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leckie

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Regarding the lost brown / red sleeping and everything goes bang; if you used twin brown for your switch wires instead of sleeping a blue this wouldn't happen. Not a requirement but a better job.
 30 April 2013 10:20 PM
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stateit

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Originally posted by: leckie

Regarding the lost brown / red sleeping and everything goes bang; if you used twin brown for your switch wires instead of sleeping a blue this wouldn't happen. Not a requirement but a better job.


How d'you manage that twice Leckie?

On my keyboard 'v' is nowhere near 'p'

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S George
http://www.sg-electrical.com
 30 April 2013 10:59 PM
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leckie

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Originally posted by: stateit

Originally posted by: leckie



Regarding the lost brown / red sleeping and everything goes bang; if you used twin brown for your switch wires instead of sleeping a blue this wouldn't happen. Not a requirement but a better job.




How d'you manage that twice Leckie?




On my keyboard 'v' is nowhere near 'p'


Spellcheck
 30 April 2013 11:16 PM
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ebee

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Originally posted by: leckie

Regarding the lost brown / red sleeping and everything goes bang; if you used twin brown for your switch wires instead of sleeping a blue this wouldn't happen. Not a requirement but a better job.


Well you`re absolutely correct but who likes to keep twin brown(red) and how many times have you seen twin brown(red) first fixed as feeders rather than switch wires? and it`s a bit more expernsive.

Rolls of only one colour scheme T & E for me but I hate tape and the sleeving must cover almost the whole length of the conductor with just a small "witness" of the original colour to aid ID.

That way whether two core or three core all my natural browns (reds) are perm Ph and all my sleeved Browns (reds) are switch Ph and the Grey(red) is either another Ph or a Blue(black) N.

In other words - with a C, L1 & L2 all my switches have C brown & L1 blue sleeved brown for 1 way and all my two ways have brown & brown for L1 , Blue and black (sleeved brown) for L2 and Grey (sleeved brown) for C for 2 way - If L1 is the one way switching terminal.

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Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 30 April 2013 11:18 PM
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ebee

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PS I still hate theses killer colours - bring back Red/Yellow/Blue

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Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 30 April 2013 11:23 PM
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leckie

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Well I must confess I have seen a whole lighting circuit wired in twin red when the wrong roll has been pulled out of a van!

Sleeving is fine, plus DIY people should not fit light fittings.
 03 May 2013 06:12 PM
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ArthurHall

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Originally posted by: alancapon

I still preferred the system in my last house. One large junction box at the top of the stairs for the downstairs lights, one in the roof for upstairs. Each light and switch had a cable back to it - simple! When decorating, you could easily connect the light in that room to a different switch while wallpapering.



Regards,



Alan.


That's my favourite way of doing lights as well, in my own house I fit a DP switch in the feed next to the JB, saves going up and down the ladder to isolate.
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