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Topic Title: Sockets on locations containing a bath or shower
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Created On: 25 March 2013 05:12 PM
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 25 March 2013 05:12 PM
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OMS

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Silly question folks - as they say, my regs books are in the van and I can't access my copies online - can anyone confirm when we introduced a minimum distance of 3m between socket outlets and the edge of zone 1.

It's going to be a lively debate with the designers who appear to have "forgotten" that installing birthing pools (yes, I know ) creates a room containing a bath or shower.

Ditto for RCD protection of all circuits of the location and the choice to omit supplementary bonding if main bonding is present and confirmed.

I'm pretty certain it's BS 7671:2008 (at least according to my copy of amendment 1) - and the date is important to the argument

Many thanks

OMS

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 25 March 2013 05:23 PM
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rocknroll

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When BS7671 moved from 2001 edition to 2008 edition it dropped the section for showers in a bedroom and at the same time allowed the fitting of 13 amp sockets in a bathroom 3 meters from the shower tray or bath tub.

regards

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leave nothing but footprints!"
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 25 March 2013 05:44 PM
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OMS

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OK - thanks funkmeister - I'm just off to give someone the benefit of my incisive commentary and lancet like opinion then !! -

OMS

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 25 March 2013 05:47 PM
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dickllewellyn

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Have fun OMS!

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Richard (Dick)

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 25 March 2013 06:13 PM
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jcm256

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You may be working outside domestic building regulations but open leaflet 20,
There is a diagram with measurements.


http://www.tameside.gov.uk/bui...gcontrol/guidancenotes
 25 March 2013 06:49 PM
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OMS

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Thanks - not domestic so Part P won't apply, but the elaboration from BS 7671 confirms things.

Righty ho - now to determine if they know what volumes of water they need, recovery time and turn over rate - and control of water temperatures - like a hot tub, I guess you wouldn't want to be hopping in when it's just been filled with 60C water

Regards

OMS

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 25 March 2013 06:57 PM
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Zs

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OMS, given that you just said birthing pools IMHO even 3 metres is too close.

That is the kind of environment where the users may be in distress,splashing, in pain, husband might be soaking wet and pacing around, and so on.

That concerns me. Edit, I mean it makes me concerned if you get my drift?

Zs
 25 March 2013 07:19 PM
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OMS

Would it not be classed as a "delivery room" or "Hydro therapy room" section 710 of the big green book, from memory ????

Regards

Daren

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 25 March 2013 07:31 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: dbullard

OMS

Would it not be classed as a "delivery room" or "Hydro therapy room" section 710 of the big green book, from memory ????

Regards

Daren


Nope - Section 710 "Medical locations" addresses a totally different risk - that of micro shocks to potentially suppressed patients presented by the type of contact of applied parts and to where on a patient ie intracardiac pacing leads are a good way of putting a few volts right in the "heart" of the matter - and potentially killing the patient very easily

Typically delivery rooms are only a Group 1 location anyway - basic RCD protection is fine - if it involves anything else other than a simple delivery (say a C section) it's into delivery theatre and that will be a Group 2 location with full blown medical Isolated Power system and supporting UPS

The risk here is just wet and conductive - and the water gets "salty" so makes things worse actually.

Regards

OMS

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 25 March 2013 07:39 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: Zs

OMS, given that you just said birthing pools IMHO even 3 metres is too close.

You'll be impressed by the TV set hanging about 2m away then - and the dado sockets about 900mm away from Zone 1

That is the kind of environment where the users may be in distress,splashing, in pain, husband might be soaking wet and pacing around, and so on.

For sure - and potentially all kinds of kit is getting plugged in by the midwifery staff as well - so double bubble risk of the ghetto blaster and the tape of "Prince of Thieves" dropping into the pool ( that's a common one - reminds them of the wedding )


That concerns me. Edit, I mean it makes me concerned if you get my drift?

I do - it's why we have Section 701 and its opening sentence - it clearly concerns others as well -

Still - it might be a bit safer when the arguing stops and the re-design begins -


Zs


Regards

OMS

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 25 March 2013 08:05 PM
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dbullard

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Originally posted by: OMS

Originally posted by: dbullard



OMS



Would it not be classed as a "delivery room" or "Hydro therapy room" section 710 of the big green book, from memory ????



Regards



Daren




Nope - Section 710 "Medical locations" addresses a totally different risk - that of micro shocks to potentially suppressed patients presented by the type of contact of applied parts and to where on a patient ie intracardiac pacing leads are a good way of putting a few volts right in the "heart" of the matter - and potentially killing the patient very easily



Typically delivery rooms are only a Group 1 location anyway - basic RCD protection is fine - if it involves anything else other than a simple delivery (say a C section) it's into delivery theatre and that will be a Group 2 location with full blown medical Isolated Power system and supporting UPS



The risk here is just wet and conductive - and the water gets "salty" so makes things worse actually.



Regards



OMS


That told me ........ Just crawled into the "office in the roof" to look at 701 ......

Regards

Daren

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..... Dont pee in my pocket and tell me its raining ......


www.quest-electrical-sw.co.uk
 25 March 2013 08:13 PM
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It seems obvious that any form of light entertainment that might be utilized in providing a calming effect to aid in the safe and smooth delivery of the next generation should be fixed to the fabric of the room and hard wired. You can find flat screen TVs built into the walls of bathrooms.
Its not as though its a temporary blow up paddling pool in the garden but a purpose designed piece of kit.

Legh

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 25 March 2013 08:14 PM
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OMS

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LoL - no offence meant Daren - I was bashing out the report and I guess you know how it goes when the heat of battle is upon you.

If you've an office in the roof - try penning a little poetry - all the good ones had a garret - the TB is optional of course

Regards

OMS

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 25 March 2013 08:20 PM
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dbullard

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Originally posted by: OMS

LoL - no offence meant Daren - I was bashing out the report and I guess you know how it goes when the heat of battle is upon you.



If you've an office in the roof - try penning a little poetry - all the good ones had a garret - the TB is optional of course

Regards



OMS


None Taken OMS

I am penning poetry of sorts

1. The invoice of woe
2. Why is the NICEIC site so slow

Regards

Daren (glass of red soon)

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www.quest-electrical-sw.co.uk
 25 March 2013 08:26 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: Legh

It seems obvious that any form of light entertainment that might be utilized in providing a calming effect to aid in the safe and smooth delivery of the next generation should be fixed to the fabric of the room and hard wired. You can find flat screen TVs built into the walls of bathrooms.

FST, wall mounted on a big moving bracket - part of the patient entertainment system and links to patient records - hope they have a good quality IP 65 handset

Its not as though its a temporary blow up paddling pool in the garden but a purpose designed piece of kit.

Well, it's a lot less high tech than your average hot tub actually - but for sure the impact of Section 701 sems to have passed them by !!


Legh


Regards

OMS

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 25 March 2013 10:38 PM
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paulskyrme

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Permanent or temporary BTW?
 25 March 2013 10:40 PM
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Legh

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FST, wall mounted on a big moving bracket - part of the patient entertainment system and links to patient records - hope they have a good quality IP 65 handset


Lol, an exasperated young lady in the throws of giving birth is likely to have something more interesting in her hands than an IP65 controller, or maybe its the C21st birth by remote control......

Legh

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 26 March 2013 09:54 AM
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AJJewsbury

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can anyone confirm when we introduced a minimum distance of 3m between socket outlets and the edge of zone 1.

From memory before the "zones" approach, there was a total prohibition of sockets in bathrooms & shower rooms, and a limit of 2.5m for shower cubicles in other rooms, which (again from memory) went back to the 15th Ed at least - so as it's not a shower cubicle, it sounds like if they're not complying with current standards, they didn't comply with the earlier ones either.
- Andy.
 26 March 2013 10:15 AM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: paulskyrme

Permanent or temporary BTW?


Permanent - healthcare job - although I wouldn't neccessarily make any distinction on risk even if it was temporary - other than of course the duration to which users are exposed to the risk - shaky ground for "suitable & sufficient" though

OMS

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 26 March 2013 10:27 AM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: AJJewsbury

can anyone confirm when we introduced a minimum distance of 3m between socket outlets and the edge of zone 1.


From memory before the "zones" approach, there was a total prohibition of sockets in bathrooms & shower rooms, and a limit of 2.5m for shower cubicles in other rooms, which (again from memory) went back to the 15th Ed at least - so as it's not a shower cubicle, it sounds like if they're not complying with current standards, they didn't comply with the earlier ones either.

- Andy.


Thanks Andy - I've tracked it back to 15th edition last night - although that's too early for this purpose. The key part of the argument is the date when we introduced RCD protection - ie implemtation of the 17th edition - prior to that it would have been supplementary bonding and slightly different arrangements for socket outlets and Zone 3.

Either way, I've several rooms containing effectively a bath - and those rooms are littered with socket outlets with no apparent RCD protection either

Thanks all

Regards

OMS

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