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Topic Title: smoke alarms in a shop?
Topic Summary: what are the requirements
Created On: 24 March 2013 01:10 AM
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 24 March 2013 01:10 AM
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mabx

Posts: 46
Joined: 11 February 2008

Been asked to quote for sorting out & certifying the wiring in a shop. I've not been asked to do a shop before - I'm more familiar with domestic, but I was recommended to this customer by a good customer, and so was wondering if anyone could advise on what's required in a shop (besides, it's good to diversify - or so I'm told).

for info: it's a smallish camera shop with an upstairs that was originally a flat (on a separate meter) but the 'flat' is currently used as shop storage space/ office/kitchen/toilet for staff (i.e. no customers upstairs). There are currently smoke alarms in all the upstairs rooms except the landing - don't know yet if they communicate with each other.

my assumption would be LD2? (smoke alarms on landing, hall and heat in kitchen) plus perhaps additional smoke in shop area?

or is this something that should be left to an fire safety expert(i.e. not me)?

thx

mabx
 24 March 2013 01:24 AM
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rocknroll

Posts: 8825
Joined: 03 October 2005

Here you go free to download;

http://webarchive.nationalarch.../fire/firesafetyrisk2

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 24 March 2013 01:38 AM
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mabx

Posts: 46
Joined: 11 February 2008

that was quick!

Thanks!

Looks like I've got a bit of reading to do though
 24 March 2013 08:21 AM
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alanblaby

Posts: 343
Joined: 09 March 2012

I've been thinking recently that the relevant British Standards should be available to all for a nominal fee via a download.
The Emergency Lighting and Fire Alarm Standards cost a small fortune to buy, and though I really should have a copy, i've just got by with the 'guide to' etc books, and advice, and excerpts which are available freely on websites.

The market for these documents must be ridiculously small - what, less than 250 a year? Maybe 2000 copies bought (at most) when they are renewed?
Has there ever been an attempt to make such documents free/nominal fee to end users?
Would a campaign to do so reap any benefit?
There can be no profit in such BS publications (7671 may be an earner as it sells 30000+ each time it is renewed), but these more specialised ones must struggle to justify their print cost, even at their exhorbitant retail price.

Any thoughts?
 25 March 2013 11:24 AM
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mabx

Posts: 46
Joined: 11 February 2008

Well that reference is full of general guidance for any size or shape of shop or office, but seem a bit short on specific requirements that relate to fire alarms for small shop.

I don't suppose anyone's got any suggestions that are more specific to electrical installers and small premises?

Are there any good guide book recommendations (though I don't want to stall the customer too long).

Thx

m
 25 March 2013 11:50 AM
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mabx

Posts: 46
Joined: 11 February 2008

Originally posted by: alanblaby

I've been thinking recently that the relevant British Standards should be available to all for a nominal fee via a download.

The Emergency Lighting and Fire Alarm Standards cost a small fortune to buy, and though I really should have a copy, i've just got by with the 'guide to' etc books, and advice, and excerpts which are available freely on websites.



The market for these documents must be ridiculously small - what, less than 250 a year? Maybe 2000 copies bought (at most) when they are renewed?

Has there ever been an attempt to make such documents free/nominal fee to end users?

Would a campaign to do so reap any benefit?

There can be no profit in such BS publications (7671 may be an earner as it sells 30000+ each time it is renewed), but these more specialised ones must struggle to justify their print cost, even at their exhorbitant retail price.



Any thoughts?


I've always thought it odd that BS safety standards are not freely available for download - you'd think if they're published for safety reasons, it's odd to charge people to see them. - shows what gov't priorities are I suppose .
 25 March 2013 03:03 PM
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rocknroll

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The first thing you need is an FRA (Fire Risk Assessment) to identify the hazards, LA's are quite proactive when it comes to fire safety in shops especially if there are premises above, it could range from a smoke alarm in each location and a couple of fire extinguishers to a full system, give them a call.

This relates to small businesses.

Retail Premises - Fire Protection
REF HF2017

Introduction

Retail Premises figure prominently in fire loss statistics and range in size from corner shops to retail warehouses and departmental stores.
Although the most common cause of fire in shops cafes and small businesses is arson there are other common causes of fire.

This guidance looks at Fire Protection measures which can be taken to help protect against fire losses in small / medium sized shops which are not part of shopping centres.

What can be done?

Carry out (or review) a Fire Risk Assessment - which needs to be in writing if there are 5 or more employees or the premises are licensed. This will identify the potential fire hazards, indicate what precautions are taken or are needed to remove or reduce the hazard to a minimum.

Implement any additional precautions which are identified

Fire Hazards

Potential fire hazards and steps which can be taken to help reduce fire risks include:

Arson

Waste
Combustible waste is an ideal source of fuel and includes packaging and pallets. Good housekeeping and the regular removal of waste is essential in all internal and external areas.
External waste needs to be stored in secure enclosed areas or at least lidded locked bins, skips etc. Otherwise bins, skips and the like should be secured as far from the building as possible. Pallets need to be removed promptly and not stored against buildings.

Security
Security is important all the time. During business hours precautions need to be taken to exclude non authorised persons from staff only areas.

Out of hours ensure that both the physical and electronic security are maintained in full working order and take account of potential access from yards, drain pipes, flat roofs etc.
Maintain a list of people holding keys. When staff leave delete their access code and, if keys cannot be recovered, change the locks.

Vigilance
All staff need to be vigilant and should be encouraged to challenge strangers in unauthorised areas. The movement of visitors should also be controlled.
Larger premises may consider using a security guard.

The Building

Maintain the building in good condition, repair damage promptly and remove any graffiti as soon as possible
Provide letter boxes with an internal metal container to retain any fires from lighted rags, fireworks etc
Ensure gaps under doors to the street are as narrow as possible to stop lighted paper or fuel being pushed under.

Electrical

Electricity is a common cause of fires and can also cause serious injury. Problems result from poor installation work, poor or inadequate maintenance, or the misuse of electrical systems and apparatus.

Portable Appliances

Be vigilant to danger signs e.g. scorch marks, hot plugs, fuses which frequently blow
Check socket outlets are not overloaded
Avoid the use of multi-plug adapters (i.e. adapter blocks fitting directly into the socket) and extension leads
Have portable electrical equipment checked on a regular basis by a competent person
Fixed Wiring
Installation, repair work and testing needs to be undertaken by a competent electrician in
accordance with the current edition of the Institute of Electrical Engineers wiring
Regulations. Testing to be undertaken at least every 5yrs.

General

Consider isolating all unnecessary electrics out of hours, preferably from one switch.

Heating

Portable heaters are a potential source of fire likely to be misused and poorly positioned and should be avoided in favour of fixed heating with a remote fuel source. If absolutely necessary consider the use of a thermostatically controlled oil filled electric radiator with safety cut outs positioned in a safe place.
Other precautions in relation to heating include:

Ensure there is no storage within at least 1 metre of the heater
Locate fixed radiant electrical heaters well away from combustible items
Service gas and oil fired appliances annually by a competent person
Fit oil fired boilers with an automatic fuel cut out which operates when there is a fire over the burner unit

Storage

Avoid poor storage arrangements:

Make sure combustible items are not within 1 metre of any sources of ignition such as electrical switchgear, or heaters
Do not allow storage directly against unprotected light fittings even if of the fluorescent type. Keep 0.5 metre clearance.
Do not allow storage in boiler rooms and electrical switch rooms / cupboards. This will protect important equipment against damage and stop the introduction of a potential fire hazard. Lock such areas to prevent unauthorised access.

Smoking

Although smoking is now banned from the workplace adequate control measures are still needed to protect against illicit smoking or, where necessary, remove other hazards.
Any designated smoking areas should be:

Sited as far from any building as possible
Be provided with dedicated suitable metal disposal bin(s), which are regularly and safely emptied i.e. not with general waste
Kept clear of all combustible materials including windblown debris & vegetation.
Staff must not be allowed to discard smoking materials directly in to skips, wheelie/euro bins, general waste or stored goods.

Kitchens

Kitchens are a potential source of fire particularly where deep fat frying is involved. Extract canopies and associated ventilation systems need to be cleaned regularly.

Filters should be cleaned weekly by staff
The entire length of the extraction ducting by competent contractors at regular intervals. For heavy use (12-16 hours per day) three-monthly cleaning is suggested, for moderate use (6-12 hours per day) six-monthly cleaning is suggested and for light use (2-6 hours per day) 12 monthly cleaning is suggested.

Hazardous Goods

Hazardous goods such as aerosols, adhesives, and solvents pose particular problems and need to be subject to a separate Dangerous Substances Explosive Atmospheres Regulations (DSEAR) assessment ensuring any special regulations or codes of practice are followed.

Specific regulations apply to retailing Fireworks - guidance is available on our website.

Contractors

Avoid hot work if at all possible. If this is unavoidable operate a 'hot permit to work' system. Guidance is available on our website.

Fire Protection

Fire Protection measures include:

Automatic Fire Alarms
Consider installing an automatic fire alarm system for Property Protection in accordance with BS5839 Part 1:2002 by a company with relevant BAFE accreditation, which provides a secure remote connection to an appropriately accredited UKAS Alarm Receiving Centre.

Existing Fire Alarm Systems
Carry out a weekly bell test by operating a different manual call point each week so that all the manual call points are tested in rotation over time. Log the test.

Have an annual maintenance contract with an appropriately third party accredited company.

Fire Extinguishers

Fire Extinguishers are a useful first aid fire fighting appliance. Staff however should only tackle a fire if it is safe to do so and therefore may need relevant training.
Suitable Extinguishers need to be:

Installed in accordance with BS5306 Part 8
Clearly signed
Readily accessible at all times
Kitchens need to be provided with a fire blanket. Where deep fat frying is undertaken consider a 'wet chemical' extinguisher.

Service equipment annually, by a company with relevant third party accreditation.

Fire Suppression

For heavily used kitchens consider the installation of a specialised automatic fixed fire fighting system to protect extraction systems and associated cooking appliances by an authorised installer, with the relevant accreditation.

Sources of Further Information

Local Fire Brigade.
Local Trading Standards Office
Communities & Local Government Fire & Resilience website www.communities.gov.uk/fire


shows what gov't priorities are I suppose


The government do not get the money you pay for standards.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 25 March 2013 at 05:56 PM by rocknroll
 25 March 2013 09:53 PM
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mabx

Posts: 46
Joined: 11 February 2008

Thanks for that; I've been talking to BC and the local fire authority but still not yet sure I know what I've got to do...
 26 March 2013 12:08 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 8825
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The information I have given you, firstly our gov.uk/fire RA and the insurance underwriters guidelines for small shops is all you need to plough through to get a grasp of what is required.

Originally posted by: mabx

Been asked to quote for sorting out & certifying the wiring in a shop. I've not been asked to do a shop before - I'm more familiar with domestic, but I was recommended to this customer by a good customer, and so was wondering if anyone could advise on what's required in a shop (besides, it's good to diversify - or so I'm told).

No harm in diversifying and correct that you should ask questions.

for info: it's a smallish camera shop with an upstairs that was originally a flat (on a separate meter) but the 'flat' is currently used as shop storage space/ office/kitchen/toilet for staff (i.e. no customers upstairs). There are currently smoke alarms in all the upstairs rooms except the landing - don't know yet if they communicate with each other.

The fire protection arrangements for when this was a flat and shop premises may have been adequate at the time, what my concern is that the flat is now used as a storage facility and staff rest areas which brings into force a couple of legal issues, change of use requres notification to the LA and your client is legally bound to do or obtain a FRA (fire risk assessment), the word photographic raises some red flags although perhaps these days of digital photography not so much, items such as films and similar materials are hazardous and we have all heard the stories of exploding film canisters and arsenic/cyanide based fumes which are a killer, although the law on smoking has changed people in small shops/businesses will still smoke in at risk areas.

my assumption would be LD2? (smoke alarms on landing, hall and heat in kitchen) plus perhaps additional smoke in shop area?

Assuming without the relevant information could bring you into conflict with the RRO, not a nice place to be if you get it wrong, ask your client if they have an FRA and if not could they do one if they feel competent or employ someone to do one and work from there.

or is this something that should be left to an fire safety expert(i.e. not me)?

At the moment probably the best solution all round is to employ the services of the fire inspector, some more learning for you.

thx

mabx


regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 26 March 2013 at 12:31 PM by rocknroll
 26 March 2013 06:14 PM
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Jaymack

Posts: 4586
Joined: 07 April 2004

Originally posted by: rocknroll
http://webarchive.nationalarch...firesafetyrisk2

">http://www.communities.gov.uk/.../fire/firesafetyrisk2

Only applies to England and Wales, Salmon please note, it's started already! Run away!

Regards
 27 March 2014 08:32 AM
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lyledunn

Posts: 607
Joined: 13 August 2003

The fire risk assessment deals only with injury and loss of life. It does not consider property damage. The small camera shop that you describe may not benefit from a fire alarm system regardless of category. RR is right of course, a risk assessment can point to the need. Insurance providers are also the source of an imperative.
If it is decided that a system is required, then unless an existing domestic system is already in place, it is normal practice to install one to BS5839-1.

-------------------------
Regards,

Lyle Dunn
 28 March 2014 02:43 AM
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marcuscalwell

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Joined: 28 March 2014

Fire is one of the biggest threat to life, it can kill people and investment in an instant. So better sure you were ready in case of emergency. In addition to that, there are many online videos and elearning site for fire safety protection. On your own, you could find an answer here safety-tv.com/fire-safety.
 28 March 2014 07:20 AM
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leckie

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As Lyle has said, this is not a domestic installation so I would think it should be a BS5839 Pt1 system. However I have seen lots of Pt 6 systems in small shops with flats above that are recent installations and fire officers and building control have said this is fine. How does that work? In the document that RnR gave a link to, it refers to break glass points. Now I know you can get these for Pt6 systems, but again, this is a non-domestic installation so surely the system should Pt1?
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