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Topic Title: LED options for Downlighters
Topic Summary: 4 options for client quote
Created On: 19 March 2013 10:43 AM
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 19 March 2013 10:43 AM
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j0hng00ds0n

Posts: 23
Joined: 09 May 2007

Hi Everyone,

Client has just received a huge leccie bill for the last quarter and has asked me to provide a quote to change their 12v Halogen spots for LED versions, in order to reduce it. They have 106 downlighters in the whole house but are looking to do the Downstairs and 2 of the bedrooms upstairs, which come to 77 lights - the other 29 could be done at a later date, as these rooms aren't used as extensively as the other rooms. I've been working on another clients house where I've used Aurora i9 LED downlighters, with which I've been quite impressed, although the cost of £32 a unit is quite steep. I want to explore the different options and ask for your assistance in seeing what is do-able. 4 options are available:

1. Replace the Bulbs with LED ones using the existing Transformers, which are 6 - 8 years old. Cons: T/fs may not be compatible
2. Replace Bulbs and Transformers
3. Change for GU10 fittings and Bulbs
4. Replace with new LED units along the lines of the Aurora i9

Your help would be most appreciated.
 19 March 2013 11:53 AM
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BrucieBonus

Posts: 687
Joined: 20 February 2007

Surely it's up to the client to decide (probably on cost grounds) after you have given them a price for all 4 options???

For what it's worth - that's what I'd do

106 Downlighters!!! MAD!
 19 March 2013 12:12 PM
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jsa986

Posts: 472
Joined: 08 February 2011

Im with Brucie on that one, you just present the figures and implications, final decision is on them. If it was me id advise option 3

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 19 March 2013 12:56 PM
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j0hng00ds0n

Posts: 23
Joined: 09 May 2007

Lovely, thanks. I was wondering if there were any restrictions on using the old transformers with the new LEDs and causing a risk - old, possibly incompatible technology with new technology.
 19 March 2013 01:16 PM
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BrucieBonus

Posts: 687
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I don't think so - but if the trannies are something like 20-60W then they won't work obv.

Personally I'd recommend option 4 (nice new white fittings too instead of old yellowy white ones!) and option 3 if budget constraints
 19 March 2013 02:40 PM
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dickllewellyn

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I personally would go the GU10 route. I was, until recently, an advocate of the all in one type units, but having been back and replaced many failed units now, I would rather fit GU10 and be able to replace them or show the client how to replace them easily.

One thing to watch with retrofit lamps is that some downlight manufacturers will not gurantee their fitting if used with a third party LED lamp. I'm yet to have a problem with decent lamps in decent fittings!

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Richard (Dick)

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 19 March 2013 04:16 PM
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SherlockOhms

Posts: 322
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How about a few timer/motion switches to turn them off once in a while???

Slightly cheaper?

S.
 19 March 2013 04:26 PM
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aligarjon

Posts: 2837
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you could keep the existing fittings and just change the lampholder to GU 10. you will need to check if the lamp fits in the neck of the fitting though. i have come across a couple where the spring holder fouls the back of the lamp because they are slightly chunkier. You can get a good quality 6w lamp for about £10.00. each fitting would cost about £11.00 in materials plus your mark up

Gary

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 19 March 2013 07:52 PM
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alanblaby

Posts: 373
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I've recently changed 20x halogen 12v 35W, supplied by Robus transformers, for 12V Lumineux warm white 4.5w lamps. The colour was virtually identical to the halogens, they are the same brightness, with the added bonus of being a wider (far wider) beam. They all worked with the installed transformers.
The LEDs were £8.40 inc. each.
I've did a few GU10 lamps last week with Lumineux cool white 4.5w 230V, brighter than a 50W halogen I think, too white for my liking, but the customer was happy.
 19 March 2013 08:41 PM
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JonSteward

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The dimmers, if fitted may be an issue.
Some older dimmers don't like dimming LED
 19 March 2013 08:43 PM
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dickllewellyn

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Originally posted by: JonSteward

The dimmers, if fitted may be an issue.

Some older dimmers don't like dimming LED


Neither do a lot of modern dimmers in some cases!

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Richard (Dick)

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 19 March 2013 09:00 PM
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Igot3ears

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I would say leave the old halogen lamps in. What the eco-friendly brigade don't tell you is these so-called "inefficient" lamps give off lots of heat - which dissipates into the room. If you take this heat source away then your gas boiler has to work that little bit harder to maintain the room at the same temperrature. So you'll save a bit on your leccy bill but you'll give it back on your gas bill - net gain = zero. In fact you'll be out of pocket by the vast amount you've spent on crazy priced lamps and fittings etc. Maybe in the summer months you'll save a bit, but then you don't use the lighting much then anyway.
 19 March 2013 09:00 PM
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Igot3ears

Posts: 359
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I would say leave the old halogen lamps in. What the eco-friendly brigade don't tell you is these so-called "inefficient" lamps give off lots of heat - which dissipates into the room. If you take this heat source away then your gas boiler has to work that little bit harder to maintain the room at the same temperrature. So you'll save a bit on your leccy bill but you'll give it back on your gas bill - net gain = zero. In fact you'll be out of pocket by the vast amount you've spent on crazy priced lamps and fittings etc. Maybe in the summer months you'll save a bit, but then you don't use the lighting much then anyway.
 19 March 2013 09:16 PM
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leckie

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Firstly, dimmers on led gu10 lamps are riddled with problems. Most don't work, or have very strict limits on the quantity of lamps that can be operated by the dimmer, or they will not dim over the whole range, or require a minimum load.

Regards using halogen lamps as a heat source, I don't think that is the best idea I have ever heard, but I suppose it is a consideration.

Dedicated led fittings cost a lot and when they fail the whole fitting requires replacement not just the lamp. Imagine you fit 20 downlight fittings in a room and they start to fail in 4 years. Say you cannot get direct replacements by then and the hole is for instance 85mm. Bit limiting isn't it?
 19 March 2013 10:36 PM
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Cremeegg

Posts: 529
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Halers H2 hole is only 60mm.

I'd go for GU10's - easy to change lamps as technology improves. LED lamps may not fit and may suffer from being too hot if in traditional fire rated cans shortening their life.

Most LED lamp suppliers argue that old transformers are not a good long term idea for new LED lamps - best to use a dedicated driver to get best lamp life.

Dedicated integrated units may fail and who is to say that you will able to get a Halers H2 to match in 5 years time, or 10 years. I suspect not. Maybe the sales guy from Halers can comment - as he is known to read this forum.
 20 March 2013 10:46 AM
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AJJewsbury

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I would say leave the old halogen lamps in. What the eco-friendly brigade don't tell you is these so-called "inefficient" lamps give off lots of heat - which dissipates into the room. If you take this heat source away then your gas boiler has to work that little bit harder to maintain the room at the same temperrature. So you'll save a bit on your leccy bill but you'll give it back on your gas bill - net gain = zero. In fact you'll be out of pocket by the vast amount you've spent on crazy priced lamps and fittings etc.

Other than heat from gas (per kWh) is about a third of the cost (and CO2 emissions) of grid electricity, and the lights don't turn off when the room stat is satisfied. Even if you did the calculations on the basis of two-thirds of the electricity saving, they'd still more than pay for themselves!

Taking some pessimistic (from the "green" point of view) round numbers: say the LED lasts 10,000 hrs, incandescent lamps cost nowt, electric 10p/kWh, gas 5p/kWh.

50W for 10,0000 hrs = 500kWh = £50 at 10p/kWh.

10W (LED) for 10,000 hrs = 100kWh = £10, 40W (gas) for 10,000 hrs = 400kWh at 5p/kWh = £20, total = £30.

So even if you had to replace all the "missing" heat by gas, you'd still be saving £20 per fitting in energy bill - more than covering the cost of the LED lamp. Where you need light without space heating, the saving would be even greater.

- Andy.
 20 March 2013 11:54 AM
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ectophile

Posts: 546
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Originally posted by: Igot3ears

I would say leave the old halogen lamps in. What the eco-friendly brigade don't tell you is these so-called "inefficient" lamps give off lots of heat - which dissipates into the room. If you take this heat source away then your gas boiler has to work that little bit harder to maintain the room at the same temperrature. So you'll save a bit on your leccy bill but you'll give it back on your gas bill - net gain = zero. In fact you'll be out of pocket by the vast amount you've spent on crazy priced lamps and fittings etc. Maybe in the summer months you'll save a bit, but then you don't use the lighting much then anyway.


Plus, we do occasionally have summers in the UK, when we don't want heating. You'd be daft to pay for between 20W and 50W of heating per lamp when your room is already uncomfortably warm.

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