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Topic Title: WANNA BE A REGISTERED CONTRACTOR?
Topic Summary: Book early to avoid disappointment.
Created On: 25 February 2013 04:23 PM
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 26 February 2013 11:30 AM
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OMS

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Isn't this exactly what you were wishing for some years back - in an attempt to "isolate" all those ex geography teachers who had done a five day course and seperate them from "proper" sparkies?

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 26 February 2013 11:43 AM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Back in the OP John refers to "being inside the tent", there are other sayings that spring to mind such as "pulling up the draw bridge" and "pulling up the ladder".

So is it good for those already in place, is it creating a system that will protect the jobs and incomes of those already in place, or is it assumed there will be a line of people waiting to hand their money over?

Some years ago there was a situation where gas fitters were retiring faster that new blood came into the trade depleting the available work force, could we have this situation arise as a result of these changes, if only in the short term?

Andy


That has been happening for a number of years now right across the board, as far as construction related trades are concerned the shortage is becoming a serious issue, I will give you some figures later.

The figures coming out of the department regarding the cost of the new part P have been disappointing and prompted a call for all the groups to reconvene in May to discuss further de-regulation in this area, new proposals have surfaced from the group who call themselves the Building Services Engineers (architects, surveyors, designers, consultants etc) often in league with the LABC and I think I will be able to outline the details later.

I dont really know what you are worried about the new P gives you a lot more freedom to operate outside the procedure, for most of you who are not registered 95% of your domestic maintenance work will be non-notifiable and all you have to do is as you have always done, do a good job, certificate and move on, simples.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 26 February 2013 11:49 AM
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tomgunn

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Well thats not what I was told this morning when I spoke to 4u people. If you dont have this new cert in place then you cannot do any electrical works and, as already stated, you cannot join a part P scheme after the 5th of April if you dont complete it!

And the one course offers all of this in 17 days.... are they joking or what??? This will cause a lot of problems in the industry and maybe some deaths too... lets hope not but it seems we are going backwards!!!

Tom

-------------------------
Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).
 26 February 2013 11:58 AM
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SherlockOhms

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Ok curiosity got the better of me.

A quick call to Elecsa and I have my answer.

As an existing scheme member I don't need any further quals or certs. I carry on as normal.

This new QS scheme is only for new-entries. Elecsa will be rolling this out in June of this year.

So I guess anyone wanting to give up teaching Geograpy and make their fortune bashing houses is going to need to find some cash!

S.
 26 February 2013 11:59 AM
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rocknroll

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And the one course offers all of this in 17 days.... are they joking or what??? This will cause a lot of problems in the industry and maybe some deaths too... lets hope not but it seems we are going backwards!!!


As I said to you before there was life before P the figures relating to incidents and deaths have not changed that much in 40 years, as OMS has pointed out on a number of occasions there are peaks and troughs depending on the circumstances, economy, major events etc; during the Olympics there was a high number of incidents as people had TV's, fridges, freezers outside on multiple extension leads, but saying that the incidences of CO poisoning was higher due to the large number of barbeques being used in enclosed spaces such gazebo's etc. Dont worry it will be fine.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 26 February 2013 12:08 PM
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zeeper

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My argument wass always, if there was a problem with the QS system. Giving those guys grandfather rights seems daft. Their the ones who have caused all the problems to start with . lol
 26 February 2013 12:37 PM
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sparkingchip

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The continued reference to "qualified supervisor" is misleading.

This affects anyone who wants to become a self employed electrician from April onwards as they will be their own QS supervising themselves, hence come under this new regime.

I pointed this out sometime ago, if you want to become self employed you need this new qualification.

If you have a small firm and your one and only QS goes off work you may need to cease trading, so if you have a firm employing electricians you need a back up plan for if you go off work for some reason if you are the only QS. But if you pay to train someone up as back up they may leave and go elsewhere with their new qualification, so your back up plan may not be sound!

There are all sorts of implications if existing qualifications are not just accepted as credits to the new one. It may depend on how the fast track is implemented, remember from the last page "Fast Track, (1 day) professional discussion, supported by paperwork evidence from you. For those with 24 months or more experience and previous qualifications."

Andy
 26 February 2013 12:47 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: zeeper

My argument wass always, if there was a problem with the QS system. Giving those guys grandfather rights seems daft. Their the ones who have caused all the problems to start with . lol


What problems are those the Zeeper ?

What do you think is the "problem" that warrants this kind of revised application process for new QS candidates.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 26 February 2013 12:51 PM
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AJJewsbury

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This affects anyone who wants to become a self employed electrician from April onwards as they will be their own QS supervising themselves, hence come under this new regime.

But is this just for notifiable domestic work, or has something new legislation-wise appeared? Would a OMB just intending to work in commercial/industrial (and perhaps non-notifiable domestic - which will be a lot after April) have to worry?
- Andy.
 26 February 2013 01:06 PM
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sparkingchip

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It affects them in that if they don't get the qualification and don't join a scheme they will have to pay for third party testing and inspection of any notifiable work, which may be a better prospect than paying for getting the new qualification and scheme membership.

Downside of that is next time the customer may go directly to the third party to get the work done, always the danger when employing subbies!

Andy
 26 February 2013 01:17 PM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: AJJewsbury

This affects anyone who wants to become a self employed electrician from April onwards as they will be their own QS supervising themselves, hence come under this new regime.


But is this just for notifiable domestic work, or has something new legislation-wise appeared? Would a OMB just intending to work in commercial/industrial (and perhaps non-notifiable domestic - which will be a lot after April) have to worry?

- Andy.


So what this all boils down to is - as RnR stated.... its only for 'notifiable works?' But, if you want to join a scheme after the April the 5th deadline then you need to go on a course... obviously after the course for the torque wrench tool... ( so that you can go on another course to be assessed by NAPIT, if you aint got the right quals ),..... to go for the NAPIT reg!

Tom... ( feeling my life slipping into another dimention... ).

-------------------------
Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).
 26 February 2013 01:24 PM
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sbrown2

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I've just spoken to customer services at NAPIT regarding this subject......they indicated the only concern will be relating to the third party inspections. I was told this should not incur additional training requirements.
I know it won't happen but why can the JIB not extend their scheme to cover the domestic sector. It all gets ridiculous at times, payment to NAPIT, payments to the JIB, payments to the IET, payments to MCS and REAAL and I've just spent a year where I have not needed to notify one job. Where is it going to end!!!!!!!!
 26 February 2013 01:31 PM
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zeeper

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What problems are those the Zeeper ?


I dont know!.

However logic dictates there must have been issues. Otherwise why would so much time and energies be spent on designing a new format.

That would be ridiculous.
 26 February 2013 01:44 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: zeeper

What problems are those the Zeeper ?


I dont know!.

However logic dictates there must have been issues. Otherwise why would so much time and energies be spent on designing a new format.

That would be ridiculous.


So you don't know of any problems but assume there must be some due to changes - have you ever heard the phrases "vested interest", "cash cow" and "lobbying" by any chance ?

regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 26 February 2013 01:51 PM
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sparkingchip

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Cynic!
 26 February 2013 03:12 PM
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zeeper

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have you ever heard the phrases "vested interest", "cash cow" and "lobbying" by any chance ?


No NO , you have completely miss read the situation. These people who dance in the shadows are there to protect us from the bad electrical men who are nearly kill lots of persons.

Please do your reseach before commenting in the future.
 26 February 2013 03:20 PM
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OMS

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Actually no, Andy - just a realist.

There is a whole industry out there focused on regulating and taxing domestic electrical installations to death - not for the benefit of installers incidentaly - you just need to listen to the voices, and they are prominent in some strange places

It's a bit like torque screwdrivers - 10,000 of you have them - there are another 100,000 of you going about your business and making a living doing the same job - all the electrical sector needed was a bit of basic control and regulation - that was Part P in essence - everything that came afterwards was predictable given the key players involved, particularly given the skills shortage akin to that you mentioned for gas fitters. Fueled by the credit boom and rising house prices, it was quite obvious that a new breed of domestic installers was needed to avoid depleting further the diminishing skilled workforce needed for commercial work

Do you not see the irony in the schemes accepting poorly trained, poorly educated and totally inexperienced person on board and making them QS of thier one man empires for a modest fee - all now backtracking and wringing hands to say how awful it's turned out and that you now need much more robust training and assesment to be the same QS of your one man empire.

Of course, this is just in the domestic market - pretty much everyone else is getting on with it and trying to ignore the chattering.

regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 26 February 2013 03:45 PM
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sparkingchip

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OMS the cynic comment was tongue in cheek, I realise there are major players pulling strings in the background, take this lot they have offices locally to me with secure electric gates to keep out the riff raff like electricians! Huge multimillion pound companies that have not interest in the likes of me, except possibly for relieving me of cash.

Andy
 26 February 2013 04:03 PM
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normcall

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Then sell out to some off-shore outfit so your cash disappears.
It don't go into improving standards - apart from large accounting firms (who also seem to 'lose' money overseas).
It's only history in reverse where we plundered the assets elsewhere to make this country what it was. Now they are getting their own back.

-------------------------
Norman
 26 February 2013 04:28 PM
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John Peckham

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It is a 6 week course for people with experience and no qualifications. I don't think that is unreasonable given the amount of training that would need to be delivered and understood to get the basic knowledge and qualifications. Shorter courses for people with more experience and some qualifications.

The good thing about it is it plugs the "5 day wonder" route to registration that all you sparks have rightly condemned.

Have a look at the QS competencies required in the EAS document to do commercial and industrial work. I am not sure how NAPIT will get around this as their applicants can do a domestic assessment and then become approved to do all works. I assume NAPIT will have 2 levels of approval like the NICEIC?

I am hearing that the 2391 will not be recognised with applicants needing to do the 2394 and 2395 to be a commercial/industrial QS.

I am not sure who is responsible for pulling up the ladder from the shadows but I would be surprised if it was the regulating bodies as it will impact on their income as after April very few people will meet the EAS requirements.

I don't think it would be unreasonable for existing QSs to update their competencies to the new requirements. Me recommending this would be an own goal as I would have to do the 2394/95 exam sitting alongside my students.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
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