IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: brass chandeliers no earth at some fittings
Topic Summary: any ideas?
Created On: 21 February 2013 07:10 PM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 21 February 2013 07:10 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



davettherave

Posts: 38
Joined: 06 May 2012

I have a number of brass fittings in a common parts of recently decorated west london property.

ECR they had done gave this a code 2 / which i agree is probably
correct?

some fittings lack any cpc. although further investigation may prove that cpc can be achieved by either fly leads from conduit etc ( may of been left out when numb nuts put fittings on) or if not conduit and no earth present am i left with letting the management company have the pleasure of
1. removing brass and fitting pvc and labelling db circuit as no earth etc
2. rewiring/ install cpc

or is there any other way out?
just after some miracle really.

any ideas?

thanks
 21 February 2013 08:39 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



davettherave

Posts: 38
Joined: 06 May 2012

any takers on this one?

appreciate it
 21 February 2013 09:00 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



impvan

Posts: 788
Joined: 07 September 2005

Well you could test for Zs at the ceiling; if OK then rewire the chandelier with a 3-core flex - you can get the old-fashioned braided flexes easy enough.... I've just done a day/night wired lead-crystal chandelier with 4-core and even that wasn't hard to get.

In the past i've drilled and tapped M4 holes in the ceiling boxes to get a flylead connection...
 21 February 2013 10:27 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



davettherave

Posts: 38
Joined: 06 May 2012

see best practice guide 2 page 6 & 7
 21 February 2013 10:33 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



davettherave

Posts: 38
Joined: 06 May 2012

as far as i can tell as long as under 1meg between phase conductores and exposed conductive parts not accesible. a label stating no cpc is ok and fit rcd if in doubt! guidance, best practice guide issue 2 page 9?
 22 February 2013 09:23 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 11547
Joined: 13 August 2003

as long as under 1meg between phase conductores and exposed conductive parts

That can't be right, surely?
- Andy.
 22 February 2013 12:07 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for jsa986.
jsa986

Posts: 472
Joined: 08 February 2011

Agree with Andy, that makes no sense whatsoever. Are you suggesting its ok to have no earth to a class 1 fitting? Why would an "rcd be fitted if in doubt"?

-------------------------
www.icertifi.co.uk
Electrical & Gas Certificates on iPhone & iPad
 22 February 2013 12:37 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19747
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: davettherave

as far as i can tell as long as under 1meg between phase conductores and exposed conductive parts not accesible. a label stating no cpc is ok and fit rcd if in doubt! guidance, best practice guide issue 2 page 9?


Not 1 megohm - it's 1 ohm - effectively it's telling you it's earthed if you read less than 1 ohm between the luminaire and the installation MET.

Assuming this test fails, and IR testingis OK, essentially you need to determine if there can be simultaneous contact between these brass fittings and any exposed or extraneous conductive part - if no, they you may proceed to leave them unearthed but you would be strongly advised to put in 30mA RCD protection.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 18 September 2013 10:13 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



broadgage

Posts: 1308
Joined: 07 August 2007

If all that is required is a flylead between the chandelier and the CPC then I would do just that.

If the circuit has no CPC then IMHO this should be rewired so as to provide a CPC.
If the chandeliers can not be touched at the same time as earthed metalwork, then with the addition of an RCD then it MIGHT be just acceptable.
 18 September 2013 01:47 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 11547
Joined: 13 August 2003

Another old thread dragged up by NicelampsDelhi spam
- Andy.
 18 September 2013 06:01 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for Legh.
Legh

Posts: 3498
Joined: 17 December 2004

I would have thought that being a newly refurbished largish property it is likely to have a circuit cpc.

Having said that, there are lots of brass light fittings around that somehow do not fit the earthing criteria, not their fault, i suppose, just manufactured in different countries, such as USA metal fittings. Some instructions for Indian fittings say that they have an earth but you find when tested they do not comply.

Some fittings look as though they should be class I but are in essence class II as the lamp holders are made of plastic with a metal surround. The manufacturer's instructions will tell you that they don't require an earth.

As far as protecting a circuit with an RCD, that has no cpc, have a look at 531.2.5

Legh

-------------------------
Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 18 September 2013 09:20 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for cmatheson.
cmatheson

Posts: 211
Joined: 16 January 2003

I have come across a number of brass chandeliers and almost inevitably over time the lampholders loosten and rotate oten resulting in the wires under the lampholder twisting and eventually breaking inside the brasswork Not so nice for the next person who grips the lampholder to change a bulb.

I would suggest you tell the client you need to see low resistance between the lampholder and earth and if it is too difficult to get the necessary wiring in place then steer him toward someone who could sort him out with a shiny new plastic chandelier.

-------------------------
Chris Matheson MInstMC
 18 September 2013 10:14 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for Legh.
Legh

Posts: 3498
Joined: 17 December 2004

I would suggest you tell the client you need to see low resistance between the lampholder and earth and if it is too difficult to get the necessary wiring in place then steer him toward someone who could sort him out with a shiny new plastic chandelier.


Its not that difficult to insert an earth connection into a metal light fitting.
Most of my clients who ask for a light fitting refurbishment and PAT would probably refuse a 'plastic' chandelier and would choose instead to reinstall gas lamps to maintain the congruity of a cultural experience ....

Legh

-------------------------
Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 19 September 2013 08:51 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for Snips.
Snips

Posts: 26
Joined: 01 April 2012

How's about some double insulated brass fittings?
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.