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Topic Title: What's delaying Amendment 2?
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Created On: 20 February 2013 08:32 PM
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 20 February 2013 08:32 PM
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alanblaby

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Joined: 09 March 2012

The Government announced a £37 million fund today to subsidise the fitting of electric vehicle charging points.
This could be good news for any electrical Company.
The Regs are rumoured to be being amended with an additional Chapter on Vehicle Charging Points (722?), which would be perfect for anyone who intends to take advantage of this subsidy.

How is this amendment going?
How soon is it likely to take to release?
And why the delay, when it has been rumoured for at least 4 months now?
 20 February 2013 08:42 PM
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Legh

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From what I understand the 17th ed. 2 amd. will not be broached until 2015.
Section 722, i think, will be issued as a 'leaflet' to append to the present Amd. 1

However, if it looks yellow then ..............

Why Yellow ?

What about turquoise ?

Legh

-------------------------
Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 20 February 2013 08:59 PM
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jcm256

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weirdbeard was asking something like this not that long ago.


http://www.theiet.org/forums/f...id=50467&enterthread=y
 20 February 2013 09:07 PM
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peteTLM

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I wouldnt get too excited just yet.

Charging points in the street would automatically go to the local authorities 'preferred' street lighting etc contractor, or the local lloyds registered contractor to cut into the main.

Charging points in the home are probably going to stay a humble 3 pin socket. The decent ones are 3 phase, and not a lot of houses have that. Buying new cars, handbags, big screen tv's are glamourous.
Shelling out for a decent connection point/ dno connection isnt on most peoples agenda.
At a recent niceic techtalk, they talked about all these business opportunities (cough!!) The price of thr charging point itself was horrendous. I couldnt see what was different about it, other than being a commando socket in a shiny pole.

To be honest, anyone that fools themselves with an electric car is a muppett imho. Zero emissions- from the car yes, but we havent invented zero emission electricity just yet- or a source that actually works yet anyway!

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

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 20 February 2013 09:53 PM
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Martynduerden

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Sales of amendment 1

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 February 2013 10:46 PM
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ebee

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Good job we know you are not a Cynic Martyn

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 21 February 2013 09:34 AM
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OMS

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As I understand it, there is a draft of Section 722 circulating amongst JPEL 64 at the moment - it would appear however to be fraught with a number of highly controversial issues relating to PME services, suggestions of an installation electrode to hold down a voltage to 50V in the event of a lost PEN, RCD protection on everything coupled with dedicated circuits for charging points.

Quite how the head shed think any of that is going to happen when joe public buy a car and that has a charger supplied with a 13A plug I don't know - isn't JP just going to drive home and plug in to the nearest socket.

As electricians, are you going to ask every customer if that extra socket is for an EV - and then give them a whopping price to comply with the aspirations of 722

Can't see it myself - but it's going to generate many thousands of hours of debate, that's for sure.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 21 February 2013 09:43 AM
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Parsley

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Originally posted by: OMS

As I understand it, there is a draft of Section 722 circulating amongst JPEL 64 at the moment - it would appear however to be fraught with a number of highly controversial issues relating to PME services, suggestions of an installation electrode to hold down a voltage to 50V in the event of a lost PEN, RCD protection on everything coupled with dedicated circuits for charging points.



Quite how the head shed think any of that is going to happen when joe public buy a car and that has a charger supplied with a 13A plug I don't know - isn't JP just going to drive home and plug in to the nearest socket.

I think John knows better than that OMS



As electricians, are you going to ask every customer if that extra socket is for an EV - and then give them a whopping price to comply with the aspirations of 722



Can't see it myself - but it's going to generate many thousands of hours of debate, that's for sure.



Regards



OMS
 21 February 2013 10:02 AM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: OMS

As I understand it, there is a draft of Section 722 circulating amongst JPEL 64 at the moment - it would appear however to be fraught with a number of highly controversial issues relating to PME services, suggestions of an installation electrode to hold down a voltage to 50V in the event of a lost PEN, RCD protection on everything coupled with dedicated circuits for charging points.



Quite how the head shed think any of that is going to happen when joe public buy a car and that has a charger supplied with a 13A plug I don't know - isn't JP just going to drive home and plug in to the nearest socket.



As electricians, are you going to ask every customer if that extra socket is for an EV - and then give them a whopping price to comply with the aspirations of 722



Can't see it myself - but it's going to generate many thousands of hours of debate, that's for sure.



Regards



OMS


EV's are being supplied with dedicated plugs requiring specific sockets as far as I can tell.

As for installation, the gov are offering a 75% contribution (£1000) to installers/clients

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 21 February 2013 10:13 AM
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Angram

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13amp sockets and extension leads for high current long charging times !

Fire risk anybody?

Car dealers won't want to mention electrical installation work as part of their sales pitch.
 21 February 2013 10:27 AM
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OMS

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I've seen electric vehicle chargers being offered with 13A plugs, Martyn - we've got a few at several of our offices.

As for the grant, no problem, my comment was on the quite onerous requirements for the EV supply circuit (both in terms of the requirements on the hard wiring and the requirements for monitoring of earth continuity on the carging equipment.)

Grant or no grant, the requirements appear out of all proportion to the risk, given that householders are free to plug in almost anything they like to general socket outlets that are readily accessible from outside or are situated outside. And given a complete lack of control once the vehicle is sold, you can see factory supplied plugs being swapped out to all sorts of patterns (if only to combat unauthorised use) - a bit like caravan systems and renewables, where the 13A plug became a favourite across europe as an inlet coupler (because it wasn't compatible with Schuko or similar)

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 21 February 2013 10:39 AM
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normcall

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I read it as they would contribute up to 75% of the cost of installing a charging point in either a properties domestic garage or outside for a vehicle on the drive (ie, not on the public highway). Up to two properties per road were expected to take up this offer.

No mention of where the public supply was coming from as no new generating capacity will be available for about 10 years and then, about half has to be decommissioned by the end of the decade. I suppose, if the sun don't shine and the wind forgets to blow you might struggle down to the shops or even to work.

Lots of jobs are promised, so the cunning plan might be lots of natives peddling like mad trying to generate enough electricity to charge the cars to get them to the central generating plant.

-------------------------
Norman
 21 February 2013 11:01 AM
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John Peckham

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VCPs another money making scheme to follow skate boards, CB radio, double glazing, PV, Voltage optimization all of which were going to save mankind and make a fortune for you if you believed the salesmen!

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 21 February 2013 11:26 AM
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rocknroll

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I dont think car charging points will make a big difference to the average electrician as most of the firms who specialise in this offer the whole package, surveyor to deal with planning, highways and the DNO, builder to prepare the base and bolt the goody down and an engineer to connect up and commision the point. Most points are now made of composite recycleable materials, have on board L, N and earth monitoring including a auto resettable RCD, inert sockets until the correct plug is inserted and GPRS for fault and misuse reporting, self monitoring with little maintenance, the majority of faults are related to the onboard electronics except for the odd few that get wiped out by a vehicle.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 21 February 2013 11:27 AM
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Legh

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No mention of where the public supply was coming from as no new generating capacity will be available for about 10 years and then, about half has to be decommissioned by the end of the decade. I suppose, if the sun don't shine and the wind forgets to blow you might struggle down to the shops or even to work.



£1000 grants eh ?

New legislation
Keep fit and generate !

All persons over the age of 16 will be expected to peddle for victory for 30mins per day.
This government incentive will be delivered as part of the new fitness anti obesity campaign and provide the necessary power to keep our industries a float ....

As one MP once stated 'On your Bike!'

Just in case some you think this is nonsense - you're right. I just made all that lot up

Legh

-------------------------
Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 21 February 2013 11:44 AM
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rocknroll

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No mention of where the public supply was coming from as no new generating capacity will be available for about 10 years and then,


There is talk and considerations for them to be connected to the 'Smart Grid' so they can be shut down during peak demand periods, so probably the best business opportunity out of this for you is selling bicycles.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 21 February 2013 12:13 PM
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OMS

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There is talk and considerations for them to be connected to the 'Smart Grid' so they can be shut down during peak demand periods, so probably the best business opportunity out of this for you is selling bicycles.


Never mind shut down - there is some consideration that they could also offer bi directional power flow, so we meet peaks with the sudden disharging of 1000's of EV's plugged into the grid

Wishful thinking really

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 21 February 2013 12:27 PM
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Legh

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Bicycles !!!

There used to be a term called a 'tread-Mill' used to keep occupied a proportion of a certain transient population.

With modern technology attached this could be regarded as payback ?
or
real community service ?

Legh

-------------------------
Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 21 February 2013 12:41 PM
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rocknroll

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Since 2011 the sale of bicycles each year has exceeded the sales of cars and our tanks predict at current trends that in 2016 bicycles will be triple in number what they are now, to be fair the government has prioritised the 'think bike' policy and tasked LA's in sorting out safe cycle routes, between towns, industrial developments, coastal and rural beauty spots etc; etc; this is firmly embedded in any sort of planning now.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 21 February 2013 12:47 PM
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AJJewsbury

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Are electric cars class 1 (when connected to the mains)?

It would seem simpler (especially given the international nature of car production and the variability in the reliability of earthing across the world) if the mains inlet & mains side of the charger were class 2 and the vehicle chassis not connected to the PE.

- Andy.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » What's delaying Amendment 2?

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