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Topic Title: Installation responsibility
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Created On: 20 February 2013 08:07 AM
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 20 February 2013 08:07 AM
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darrenscruton

Posts: 62
Joined: 02 November 2005

Hi all,

Just after some advice as I think i've got involved with someone else s problem.

To cut it short a friend asked me to look at some jobs at her sunbed shop.

I didn't really want to go as i think these places look like death traps when i've seen them before.

She wanted 3 phase sunbeds installed but i checked supply's, she had 3 x single phase metal wylex boards with plug in MCB's in them, each one fed off different incoming phase.

I advised to get a new three phase board installed with MCB/RCD protection for relevant circuits and a full test carried out before installing new sunbeds to check all was ok.

I never spoke with her for a while but a few weeks ago she called for me to go round, what had happened not long after me going round there had been a flood and water had got in by the main incomer, the landlord had a firm in to put in a new 3 phase board, this all looked good but after taking a better look, they had put in the new board and fed new sunbeds but had just fed the old wylex boards off new 63A MCB's in the new board.

This meant the existing boards with holes in the sides and un marked circuits as-well as no RCD protection for any sockets had just been resupplied.

I mentioned that i would not touch the sockets she wanted moving without putting on RCD protection, the landlord says this is not needed due to the recent work and has got onto the company who did the work and they are saying it is not there problem.

I have looked at there NICEIC cert and it gives no mention of this lack of protection in the existing condition box and no tests were carried out on these.

Sorry, i know its long winded but am I correct in thinking they should have brought this up while doing the upgrade work and either done it or put in a report saying so if permission not given.
 20 February 2013 09:33 AM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11277
Joined: 13 August 2003

am I correct in thinking they should have brought this up while doing the upgrade work and either done it or put in a report saying so if permission not given

Tricky. Strictly speaking they're only responsible (and so certify) the work they've actually done. Existing bits that they haven't touched, whether upstream or downstream of the alteration, aren't their responsibility other than making sure that the alteration doesn't compromise the existing (e.g. by increasing Zs or v.d. beyond limits or overloading it) and the new work isn't compromised by the existing (i.e. the existing can supply an adequate earth, equipotential zone etc).

It would be good if they commented on any inadequacies in the existing installation - but that really depends on what they were asked to do and how much access they were given to the rest of the installation.

Lack of 30mA RCD protection for sockets or concealed cables isn't necessarily a problem in commercial installations - it is recognised that H&S procedures (e.g. rules to the effect that ordinary employees aren't permitted to plug in untested appliances, use appliances outdoors or knock nails etc into walls) could reduce risks associated with a non-RCD system down to a similar level as RCD protected in an uncontrolled environment (under the supervision of skilled or instructed in the words of the regs).

Holes left in the side of equipment certainly sounds a bit rough to say the least - but how big are they? On the top surface they'd need to be (I think) >1mm (IP4X) for the regs to object - on other faces I think it's IP2X (up to finger sized).

- Andy.
 20 February 2013 10:45 AM
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Richard64

Posts: 231
Joined: 15 October 2009

Andy,
IP2X or IPXXB
2X so you can't put your finger through the hole or XXB so if you can, you can't touch anything live.
 20 February 2013 06:24 PM
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welchyboy

Posts: 49
Joined: 08 September 2011

Sounds like they have done the bare minimum they have had to do, maybe not their fault, maybe the landlord or shop owner wouldn't pay for a proper job to be carried out??
They haven't done anything seriously wrong by the sounds of it

Bit of a wasted opportunity to bring the install up to spec though!
 20 February 2013 08:27 PM
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slittle

Posts: 3459
Joined: 22 November 2007

Although we don't tend to get involved with this sort of work, I can see that if it was an insurance job. The loss assessor/adjuster would have probably agreed a new board etc but not improvements on the existing.

I'm sure some of the guys that do this sort of thing can comment more but I suspect it's a case of you get what they will pay for.

Stu
 20 February 2013 10:14 PM
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peteTLM

Posts: 3119
Joined: 31 March 2005

Not done a lot of insurance work, but my understanding is that it is like for like, but to current regs.
You cant take out an old board to say 16th and put back a 16th.

Strictly speaking do the sockets in a shop need RCD protection? Sure for cleaners sockets etc, not sure what i think of a 3 phase sunbed.

Dont single phase sunbeds kill your skin enough??

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