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Topic Title: Ellis calls for reclassification of cable cleats
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Created On: 14 February 2013 08:17 PM
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 14 February 2013 08:17 PM
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sparkingchip

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 14 February 2013 09:31 PM
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daveparry1

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As the saying goes, "you couldn't make it up could you",
What a load of waffle!!

Dave.
 14 February 2013 10:19 PM
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sparkingchip

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"The world's leading cable cleat manufacturer, Ellis has called on the IET to eradicate a longstanding installation issue that causes serious health, safety and system integrity problems by reclassifying cable cleats as protective equipment"

I'm still digesting it, doesn't that that make a box of cable clips protective equipment as well, along with conduit and trunking.

Andy
 14 February 2013 10:29 PM
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daveparry1

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I wonder if the clips will have an IP rating, and perhaps be double insulated?
 14 February 2013 10:29 PM
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peteTLM

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What a load of crap.

Its not even April yet......

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 14 February 2013 10:35 PM
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Martynduerden

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Is this for real ? I'm sure your wrong Pete it must be april 1st!

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Edited: 14 February 2013 at 10:45 PM by Martynduerden
 14 February 2013 10:37 PM
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stateit

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It's not exactly a rock'n'roll business they're in, so cut them a bit of slack...

Give them their dues... At least they're catching a bit of the limelight for a moment.

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 15 February 2013 09:26 AM
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OMS

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Mmmmm - I guess then chaps, you've never calculated to "motorising torque" on big cables under fault or observed the aftermath of big cables in high fault current applications being held in place by luck, a bit of tape and few ty wraps.

I've seen 300mm2 single cores actually torn loose and presumably whip around the switchroom - I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it personally speaking.

Not all cable is T&E in Mrs Jones front room - try a bit of googling, there are plenty of videos around of cables being tested under SC conditions at high fault currents - when you've watched them, and thanked whatever god you pray to that you weren't in the switchroom when the fault occured, then you'll see why Ellis have a genuine point to make.

Regards

OMS

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 15 February 2013 10:03 AM
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oshta

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Originally posted by: OMS
I've seen 300mm2 single cores actually torn loose and presumably whip around the switchroom - I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it personally speaking.

A freind of mine has occational spoken about the time a certain powerstation was accidently bought online without being sync'ed to the grid. The switch gear (his area) survived, but the entire lenght of the cables all jumped out of the concrete troughing scattering the covered hither and thither!

Edited: 18 February 2013 at 08:47 AM by oshta
 15 February 2013 07:14 PM
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kj scott

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Originally posted by: OMS

Mmmmm - I guess then chaps, you've never calculated to "motorising torque" on big cables under fault or observed the aftermath of big cables in high fault current applications being held in place by luck, a bit of tape and few ty wraps.

I've seen 300mm2 single cores actually torn loose and presumably whip around the switchroom - I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it personally speaking.

Not all cable is T&E in Mrs Jones front room - try a bit of googling, there are plenty of videos around of cables being tested under SC conditions at high fault currents - when you've watched them, and thanked whatever god you pray to that you weren't in the switchroom when the fault occured, then you'll see why Ellis have a genuine point to make.

Regards

OMS


But that still doesn't make a fixing protective equipment, it's still a fixing; fit for purpose, and suitable for installation conditions, but still a fixing.

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 15 February 2013 08:17 PM
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sparkingchip

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Agreed.

Andy
 15 February 2013 08:39 PM
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prophet

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It's nice Ellis are so concerned about this. Can't see an ulterior motive whatsoever!
 15 February 2013 10:50 PM
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dlane

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Originally posted by: kj scott

But that still doesn't make a fixing protective equipment, it's still a fixing; fit for purpose, and suitable for installation conditions, but still a fixing.


Only under the existing perceived definition of what protective equipment is and that is what Ellis are challenging.

Admittedly it is only an issue at high fault levels but I can see an argument under those circumstances that the appropriate fixing and construction of the installation adds to the protective measures applied to reduce the risks of the installation giving rise to dangers.

Kind regards

Donald Lane
 17 February 2013 11:21 AM
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dg66

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I guess the people who think its all a load of rubbish havent seen the aftermath of an incorrectly cleated HV cable that suffered a fault and the costs involved in refitting the cable and containment.

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Dave(not Cockburn)
 17 February 2013 12:33 PM
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daveparry1

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I don't think anyones underestimating the importance of sufficient support or containment Dave, it's more the fact that they want cable clips/cleats to be classified as protective devices?

Dave.
 17 February 2013 12:54 PM
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dg66

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It could be a simple matter of better manufacturers instructions, for example the cable manufacturer could specify ' cables to be clipped at xx mm intervals using cleats to BS whatever ' BS 7671 already covers it 'must be installed to manufacturers instructions ' and ' cables must be adequatly supported' although its vague.
The cleat manufacturer could also specify these requirements, but in doing so,when it goes t*ts up someone will be liable apart from the installer.

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Dave(not Cockburn)
 17 February 2013 01:22 PM
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rogersmith7671

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From Electrical Time Online;

"The company's argument for this reclassification is based on three key points:
1. In the event of a short circuit fault, the maximum electromechanical stress between the conductors occurs during the first quarter cycle - i.e. at or before 0.005 seconds.
2. Typical circuit breakers and other protection devices don't trip and interrupt a fault until between three and five cycles (0.06 to 0.1 seconds).
3. In contrast, correctly specified cable cleats earn their crust during the first quarter cycle, ensuring the cables remain intact and operational. "

So their argument is; the correct choice and setting of appropriate cable cleats will protect the cable from damage done in the first few microseconds before the CPD's operate, thus preventing harm to persons, livestock and property. They hope such classification will focus the mind of the designer along these lines.

Regards.
 17 February 2013 02:55 PM
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dbullard

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I can see a valid argument for this, as Oms pointed out re the mechanical and torque stresses involved.

What I would dearly like are decent cleats and cable clips as everything that I have purchased in the last 12 months is total crap, cable manufacturers are scrimping on sheathing, making the usual cleats under or over sized, since schnider group started taking over the world I cant find a decent cable clip. I used to purchase a clip made by the EMMA group which then got taken over by some one else and now Schnider have purchased that company along with almost everyone else.

If any manufacturers are reading this thread or do visit the IET, and glance through

FFS sort it out, I do quality work and feel let down by crap you are trying force me to buy , I usually buy 3000 at a go, but with the dross your pushing most of the heads snap off the nails with as much as a wrong look at them, your cleats are as weak as p##s and as for the crappy screws and wall plugs just compounds the problem.

Me for one would rather spend another £1.00 a box for quality, rather than try to get 2 in and chuck 20 away.

Rant over,Im off for my operation tomorrow so will be on the site for 2 weeks as I wont be able to walk.


Regards

Daren

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 17 February 2013 03:12 PM
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Jaymack

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I don't think anyone should take exception to classifying cleats as protective equipment, albeit that they are "mechanical containment devices". Installations have to be designed to handle fault currents throughout; this includes the spacing of cleats of cables to contain the maximum fault level for the duration, without excessive damage. I have been accustomed to using manufacturers' tables of spacings, for cables in trefoil etc.

Regards

Edited: 17 February 2013 at 07:21 PM by Jaymack
 19 February 2013 08:07 AM
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kj scott

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Will that include the other fixings, screws and bolts that are often seen used as protective devices?

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