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Topic Title: New Part P notifications after April
Topic Summary: Whats a 3rd party registered certifier?
Created On: 31 January 2013 09:16 PM
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 04 February 2013 09:33 AM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: welchyboy

And there's me worrying about things like not having a torque screwdriver for my next inspection lol!


Is that whats going on now? You need a torque screwdriver? Wonder what the torque on a 1g 1w switch would be?

Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

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 04 February 2013 09:35 AM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: daveparry1

I agree with you there welchyboy, sort of two steps forward and one back!



Dave.


I have to disagree on this - I think things are improving you know - as it used to be two steps forward and two steps back!

Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).
 31 March 2013 06:04 PM
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weirdbeard

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Hi All, just did a random search and found this BCO fee's sheet that applies from 1st april 2013:

http://www.sevenoaks.gov.uk/__...l-Fees-April-2013.pdf


It says:

"Where you choose not to use an electrician who belongs to an approved self-certification scheme, we will carry
out inspections of the new electrical work and test it once it has been completed. We will employ qualified
electricians for this and there is an additional fee to cover costs. "

Theres no mention of 3rd party certification, or any mentions relating to item 3.10 / 3.11 of the 2013 doc., it just says that there is a fixed price where non-scheme members undertake the electrical work, which seems to me that this is misleading to the general public - is this allowed?

2013 part p doc:


http://www.planningportal.gov....r/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf
 31 March 2013 07:03 PM
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jcm256

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I put this website below on before (no one interested don't blame anyone), it is from one building control what they require part P or no part P, it is from tomorrow 1 April 2013. If you scroll to the bottom of the web page, you will see the form to be completed by what the call a non-competent person and the qualifications required.
Mind you for a government body they have made a few mistakes EIC, IEE and the mind set of thinking that any electrician not registered with a scheme is not competent. (Mind you the qualifications they require for a none registered electrician might be greater than any government approved registered scheme member have)


Building Regulation Part P Electrical safety - Non competent person assessment form

To be completed by the electrician carrying out the work if not a member of a certification body such as NICEIC, ELECSA, or ECA etc.

[PDF]
Building Control Guidance Note 20
www.tameside.gov.uk/buildingcontrol/guidancenotes/note20.pdf

Edited: 31 March 2013 at 08:01 PM by jcm256
 31 March 2013 09:37 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: jcm256

I put this website below on before (no one interested don't blame anyone), it is from one building control what they require part P or no part P, it is from tomorrow 1 April 2013.




Sorry must have missed that post, interesting that they mention 3rd party certification - they must know something that we don't - it's still not available as far as I can tell? could be intesting if their 'customers' go for that option!

One things for sure - if the whole thing wasn't a watery mish-mash-post code lottery from the start, after the 6th april, it definintely will be more so.
 01 April 2013 10:06 AM
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Zs

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AFAIK, the clubs are still arguing,oops, I mean discussing, the finer points of this.

Zs
 01 April 2013 05:54 PM
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jcm256

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This saga of wither an electrician is competent to wire a socket in the kitchen has
been debated in the House of Lords. Woman this time voted to retain part P.

The House regrets.
Motion withdrawn.
Sitting suspended.


http://www.theyworkforyou.com/.../?id=2013-03-18a.427.8
 02 April 2013 12:54 PM
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dudleydoright

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Third Party certification via a EICR?, what registered competent person shemes allow for this means of certification to be carried out within your rules,
None I suggest so the rules will be broken. and the Third Party certifier will have no insurance to cover any future problems.

D
 02 April 2013 11:35 PM
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ebee

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Make well known phrase or saying from the following :-

" What Well a Breakfast Dogs"

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Ebee (M I S P N)

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 29 June 2013 09:59 AM
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ebee

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I don't disagree with Martyn`s sentiments here.

Annual "Snake and Mongoose Event" a few days away now, I`ll ask the assessor his take on it!

"Snake and Mongoose Event" (oh I wish I`d coined that phrase meeself JP!)

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Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 29 June 2013 02:41 PM
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weirdbeard

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Heres a link to some fairly recent blurb from the ESC which mentions 3rd party I&T of notifiable work: They seem to be proposing that the 3rd party option of notification should not be an available to those in the 'trade' - the reasoning given is: "This would reduce the risk of electricians dropping out of Part P"




http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmi...ndustry-Summit-web.pdf
 29 June 2013 10:58 PM
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sparkingchip

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If it mirrored the gas scheme, as they suggest it would, then only part P registered electricians could install notifiable work, talk about trying to manipulate the system to the financial benefit of the scheme operators and completely ignoring the needs and requirements of those actively engaged in trying to earn a living whilst providing customer service along with quality work.
 29 June 2013 11:34 PM
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sparkingchip

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Or having thought about it for a few minutes they are scared we will go back to the days of a mate down the pub doing the certificates and notification for thirty quid without even visiting the site, but merely writing up a certificate based on test results taken by the person who isn't allowed to certify and notify in the first place.

A total mess being made worse by those who profess to have the knowledge and experience to advise and legislate, but actually have no sense or understanding of what they are really involved with.
 29 June 2013 11:51 PM
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sparkingchip

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The ESC white paper covers part P and the Green Deal.

We don't have to look far to see what industry thinks of the Green Deal!

It really is time those actually affected by part P started to get vocal instead of sitting back and watching those who should know better making a complete hash of it all.

Though bullying people into taking up with "consequential improvements" or the conservatory tax as it also know should not be the way forward with the Green Deal, neither is altering part P making it easier for DIYers to get notifiable electrical work notified than it is for those in the trade and also at a lower cost for DIYers than the professional who needs to make the occasional notification.

Andy

Edited: 30 June 2013 at 12:24 AM by sparkingchip
 30 June 2013 11:34 AM
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John Peckham

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"Or having thought about it for a few minutes they are scared we will go back to the days of a mate down the pub doing the certificates and notification for thirty quid without even visiting the site, but merely writing up a certificate based on test results taken by the person who isn't allowed to certify and notify in the first place. "

Andy

What do you think happens now? That is common practice with registered contractors now. The competent persons schemes big failing is that they register enterprises and assess one person thereafter the registered company can send anyone out on the job to install and I&T the job. If the job is inspected and tested in the first place the results are put down on a scrap of paper which is handed back to the office to be entered on a certificate or an EICR by another person. The QS ( the assessed person) then signs it, so no different from your pub scenario? In addition plenty of registered contractors will happily certify and notify other people's work for a cash bung, again no different from you down the pub scenario?

The practice of sending anyone out who can mist up a mirror to do EICRs and the corrupt and fraudulent practices are well known to everyone in the industry and the registering bodies is well known but no one is interested in doing anything about it!

It would be a wonderful thing if the great and the good looking at this new independent certify roll decided to go for individually registered, qualified and competent individuals who actually went to site and inspected and tested jobs in person. Thereafter the registering bodies would have to be active in maintaining the integrity of the scheme by booting out people engaged in corrupt practices eve if it meant losing membership fees.

If the great and the good looking at this new

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 01 July 2013 07:17 AM
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davezawadi

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Gas safe is a licence to print money, and is ineffective. Part P is very similar. Certain bodies of dubious credentials want me to pay them for nothing, and have so little interest in the public good they don't understand why none of this will work, as it never has.
If I were dishonest enough I would become one of these "third party" types, but most of those using the service would so dislike the test and inspection that is necessary, and make the business nonviable if carried out properly! So what incentive is there not to do the bung at the pub thing if you are needing a cert? None at all as John says!.



Oh well,

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CEng etc, don't ask, its a result not a question!
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 21 November 2013 05:27 PM
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weirdbeard

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Accordiing to this link something will be coming into force on Valentines Day 2014:


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/building-regulations-third-party-certification-schemes-for-electrical-installations-in-dwellings

 21 November 2013 06:34 PM
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jcm256

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Looks like another scheme in parallel but separate from the existing schemes, wonder how much a third party electrician will have to pay to register with them. However, of course, you know who will get to run the third party schemes. Unbelievable but maybe true a qualified electrician fits a light in a bathroom (new circuit), he is not a member of a scheme, he gets a third party electrician to check his work, the new scheme operator then checks the third party electrician work. Of course, they the Government are talking over the electrician's heads again. Pity you poor hapless householder who has to pay the inflated bill.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/255110/131029_3rd_Party_Cert_Scheme_conditions_final.pdf
 21 November 2013 07:28 PM
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John Peckham

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JCM

When you say the Government are talking over electricians heads, the government think the various bodies are representing electricians as that is what they are told. You still have a big chance to tell the Parliamentary Select committee your views but you will have to be quick. See my thread on the subject. If you don't use this one off chance for direct input then you can't feel that strongly about the issue.

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http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 21 November 2013 09:27 PM
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psychicwarrior

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i cant be bothered with it all. CPS's, notification to BC, all in the PART P name yadeyaa - sooner its replaced with something not driven by cash/money/profit, the better.

i cant believe reading this thread that some, as it appears, are only starting to realise/sound out that something has gone wrong enough to really start shouting about it - well that's how it comes across to me.

any one who wants to believe all this codswollop of governance and notification, since PART P introduction, has made a significant (or any) difference to whatever it was intended to (does any one really know), then go on then keep foolishly (in my opinion) flying the flag. i'm not convinced by any of it and certainly will never be by any "lies, damn lies and statistics" argument that's for sure.

i believe PART P had at its heart a good aim, that has never been met due to vested interested money orientated ventures getting involved and really really poor implementation.

i know too many people less competent than me and certainly way off some/all of you, making a good living out of doing 'electrics' - whether they at least have some industry knowledge and/or training, or are just DIYers.

my view on what's required is simple [to me]: do your work properly, sign off your own EIC's and EICR's, if someone wants to occasionally check some of it for maintaining quality and standards, at some non-profit making nominal cost, then fair enough; that 'cost' has to be the same to all and not depend or be discounted by membership of what body/scam/list one belongs to. In that sense 'the checking and policing' HAS to be publicly* owned (if privately delivered) or what's the point.

(* i would accept industry owned [self policing], so long as there was only one body/group responsible or in charge and again at nominal cost)

any changes to 'right to practise' should not put previously qualified/competent persons 'out of a job' by unnecessarily or irresponsibly moving the 'qualification' goal posts.

only this way will the public, our customers, understand it.

i predict you will see wages and standards you are all trying to preserve by continuing to bide the current farce, get lower one way or another! i hope i am completely wrong (most likely will be hehe) and even if it changes nothing, then it still aint right.....

regards


PS: i leave you with this, its outrageous that a competent electrician can lose out on a contract just because he was in NAPIT and not in NICEIC ! that in itself tells me something is wrong with the system and its aims and objectives!
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