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Topic Title: New Part P notifications after April
Topic Summary: Whats a 3rd party registered certifier?
Created On: 31 January 2013 09:16 PM
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 03 February 2013 10:00 AM
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welchyboy

Posts: 49
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Originally posted by: Martynduerden

Originally posted by: welchyboy



That's what I meant it'll be the kitchen fitter no doubt, term blind leading the blind comes to mind




Electrics are generally rubbish in quality and substance BUT then again no one really dies so there's no need for stringent regulation...



Stick to what you do, keep your standards high, don't drop your prices, don't do EICR's / PIR's / EIC's for crap electricians


Yeah your right but its just a shame as it looks like even as part p was poorly thought out, at least it was moving in the right direction, but now it's just gonna end up where we were before, but the conciensious electricians still get hit for all the costs and yearly fees etc which makes us more expensive

This will make an even bigger gap between the professionals and the two bob merchants
 03 February 2013 10:09 AM
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daveparry1

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I agree with you there welchyboy, sort of two steps forward and one back!

Dave.
 03 February 2013 10:35 AM
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ebee

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Originally posted by: Martynduerden

Originally posted by: welchyboy



That's what I meant it'll be the kitchen fitter no doubt, term blind leading the blind comes to mind




Electrics are generally rubbish in quality and substance BUT then again no one really dies so there's no need for stringent regulation...



Stick to what you do, keep your standards high, don't drop your prices, don't do EICR's / PIR's / EIC's for crap electricians


I`ll agree with you Martyn

"even as part p was poorly thought out, at least it was moving in the right direction, but now it's just gonna end up where we were before"

Likewise Welch

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Ebee (M I S P N)

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 03 February 2013 02:36 PM
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rocknroll

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I you are referring to life before Part P, well there were not any problems then, the appropriate AD's were introduced to create a common build policy because of the large number of people becoming and encouraged to become small businesses, the fiasco of every man and his dog trying to control and regulate a minor section of the construction industry and the hype that followed is a seperate issue from what was originally planned.

I would not worry too much about the new Part P it is on the whole user friendly and needs a bit of thought, the government has successfully severed most of their ties with the schemes and the ridiculous demands they were making on you, nobody is too fussed about it and the responsibility and trust has been handed back to you to go out there use your common sense and judgement and do a good job with very little bureaucratic interference, thats what de-regulation is all about.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 03 February 2013 04:08 PM
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whjohnson

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Have to agree R&R and I'm all for de-regulation, something the NuLabour micromanaging box tickers hated.

It's time some common sense was reintroduced into the industry.

but the conscientious electricians still get hit for all the costs and yearly fees etc which makes us more expensive


You know what they say about a Fool and his Money........
Something that NuLabour knew well.

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 03 February 2013 04:18 PM
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OMS

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I'd be pretty certain that Part P or no Part P, the professional electrician running a bona fide business isn't losing out to a few local "characters" just due to a few hundred a year in scheme membership - they simply couldn't compete on any level.

If nothing else, it's made quite a few people "pick up thier game" as it were.

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 03 February 2013 04:31 PM
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jcm256

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Scotland must be laughing up their kilt at all this, they already have an approved Certifier, system for years, something ; Like that now has surfaced, in the new part P come April 2013.(Except LA looking for a cash fee)

Work covered by a certificate issued by an Approved Certifier requires no further checking by the local authority, saving time, and speeding up the building warrant application process or the acceptance of completion certificates.
􀂃Approved Certifiers will provide greater flexibility and more efficient designs or installations due to their up to date expert knowledge of new innovations and technologies.
 03 February 2013 05:14 PM
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weirdbeard

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Hi All, thanks for the responses,

I just searched 'part p third party registered certifier' and found on another forum an interesting post which says this was in an email from the ESC, september 2012 (did anyone else get this?)


(I have underlined a couple of points which seem interesting, and as the rest of the facts seem accurate, it does seem to explain why the schemes are a bit quiet on this front? )

:

"Part P - third party certification schemes


The analysis of responses to the Part P consultation is now complete and the revised Part P Regulations will be laid before Parliament on 10th December, coming into force on 6th April 2013.
Our understanding of the situation is that the changes to Part P will be similar to those proposed in the consultation document, including a reduction in the scope of notifiable work and the introduction of third party inspection and testing. There may be a list of work that is notifiable, rather than non-notifiable (as at present).
The phrasing of the legislation has yet to be decided with details still to be worked out.
For legal reasons, the government needs to set up new third party certification schemes, under which inspectors will need to be registered. Those wishing to operate inspection schemes will need to apply to DCLG for authorisation once a framework is in place early next year, with the schemes expected to come into effect in the autumn.
Members of third party inspection schemes will need to demonstrate competence in inspection and testing, and membership will not just be open to Part P scheme registrants. DCLG will be looking to industry to help develop competence requirements for assessment purposes. The ESC is likely to be invited to join a working party, along with some of the Part P scheme operators.
Electrical installers (DIY or trade) using a third party inspector will not need to notify a building control body before carrying out work or pay building control body fees. The third party inspector will, if satisfied with the work, notify compliance with Building Regulations.
Inspectors will need to 'take all reasonable steps' to determine whether or not work complies with the Building Regulations - the same requirement as currently applies to building control bodies. Professional Indemnity insurance will be a requirement. The liability for defective work will lie with the installer, not the inspector (unless negligent). "
 03 February 2013 05:27 PM
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weirdbeard

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Another question- if this comes about, if someone is registered with their local bco for 3rd party certication, would they be able to 'sign off' works in properties in a different bco catchment area?
 03 February 2013 05:51 PM
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John Peckham

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Weirdbeard

From the information in the email from the ESC you printed above it would seem that organisations like the NICEIC, NAPIT and others will have to apply to the DCLG to run the new competent persons scheme. So unlike the alarmist information above existing domestic installers will not be able to sign off jobs they will have to apply for registration with the new third party certifier scheme. No doubt once registered they can can to any LABC area to I&T and notify installations in the same way members of the Part P installers can.

The ESC stated that these new inspectors will need PII and must demonstrate competence in inspection and testing. Clearly we must wait until DCLG announce what qualifications and what criteria will be needed for this competence requirement.

While we wait for DCLG does anyone have any views what the qualification and competency requirements should be for these new Part P inspectors?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 03 February 2013 06:19 PM
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weirdbeard

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Hi John, I wouldn't say it's alarmist though must admit I got the underlining a bit round my neck - for some reason when I read DCLG i was thinking BCO - perhaps because of the bit saying "and membership will not just be open to Part P scheme registrants"
 03 February 2013 06:24 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: John Peckham



While we wait for DCLG does anyone have any views what the qualification and competency requirements should be for these new Part P inspectors?


Hi again John, I would say more interestingly, would be the question of how much it's going to cost to be a member of this new scheme - for instance a DI registered with the NICEIC would have to pay extra to carryout EICRs under their banner, though after a quick scout around the site I can't see this option mentioned anymore....
 03 February 2013 06:33 PM
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John Peckham

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So what qualifications should these new inspectors have and what assessment should they be subjected to to become a Part P verifier?

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John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 03 February 2013 06:38 PM
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weirdbeard

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Hi JCM, currently a BCO or approved inspector with about F all electrical experience can sign off a BR compliance cert which seems to defeat the orginal objective, the new rules seem to be allowing the option of having works accounted for by persons other than those appointed by the bco or part p 'scheme' members.
 03 February 2013 06:44 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: John Peckham

So what qualifications should these new inspectors have and what assessment should they be subjected to to become a Part P verifier?


Same as if they were a Part P competent person John - if they are fit and proper persons to sign off thier own work, why do they need to be anything more to sign of another persons work (be that another non part P entity or a DIY installer).

In fact if the requirements were to be greater, then at a stroke you could deduce that every Part P competent person is in fact - incompetent.

I don't know about you, but I suspect a whole bunch of people might just get a bit irate at that suggestion.

regards

OMS

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 03 February 2013 06:48 PM
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jcm256

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Don't know but it is getting away from the sprit of deregulation and, how could a singular operative afford UKAS ACCREDITATION? No doubt, some party will say oh we will third party that. A plan is taking shape; the Government will never shake off the baggage they created.
 03 February 2013 06:52 PM
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rocknroll

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Don Foster is very much in favour of the IET definition of competence and he and his advisors will be very much aware of the other legislation regarding barrier to trade and discrimination when setting some ground rules, the general feeling is that the small majority of you who decide to take up this opportunity will have the basics in place such as 2391 etc anyway and those who dont and can demonstrate competence wont be excluded, there was talks of setting up a hotline for those who may have been rejected and also where LA's are favouring contractors.

Talking to a lot of electricians who operate within the domestic maintenance sector the majority are just going to carry on as normal, not get involved in the politics of third party inspection and just concentrate on their own work, certify and on to the next job.

You have to remember one of his comments was that the main focus here is the DIYers and those who do some electrical work as part of their occupation and do not have access to or test equipment and the necessary competence.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 03 February 2013 at 07:01 PM by rocknroll
 03 February 2013 07:16 PM
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weirdbeard

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Looking on the bright side of the new docs, if I want to carry out notifiable works in my own home as a qualified electrician I can notify in advance of the works, supplying evidence of my qualififcations and a stamped addressed envelope I will hope to recieve a BCO certificate upon notice of completion?
 04 February 2013 09:24 AM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

I had my NAPIT assessment last week and that was to UKAS, all my notifications have been insurance backed since the start of part P and I get grand dad rights on the NVQ.

Andy



Hi - how did you manage to get the granddads rights? Heard this before.

Thanks...

Tom

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 04 February 2013 09:31 AM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: ady1

No Welchy - Its worse than that...

Anyone - Not even registered can do do that kitchen. Then someone registered comes in and does a EICR to prove its all well and good !!!



Ady


The way I have read it was that you can extend sockets etc in a kitchen area without an EICR - I would think a MWC would suffice?

Tom

-------------------------
Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).
IET » Wiring and the regulations » New Part P notifications after April

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