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Topic Title: Emergency lights
Topic Summary: Paperwork
Created On: 28 January 2013 09:10 AM
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 28 January 2013 09:10 AM
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tillie

Posts: 789
Joined: 03 May 2006

Hi , I turned down quite a lucrative job at the weekend installing eight self contained emergency lights.

I have carried out all the electrical works involved in the refurbishment of the offices involved.

Where new partitions have been erected and exit routes slightly changed the layout of the emergency lights had to be altered.

I do not normally get to involved with emergency lighting and if I do then the circuit will either appear on my EIC or MWC.

Building control and Landlords agents are involved in this job so I looked into what would be required if I did install the eight extra lights.

I was amazed at what needsto be filled in.

A four page certificate with photometric data etc.

The certificate is not valid unless complete.

I assume it will be the same if you just installed one extra light to a system.

Does anyone here install emergency lights and if so do you fill in all the boxes.

If you have installed one extra light then what do you put in all the boxes of the design declaration ( not applicable ) to most of the boxes , do you test the light level on your light or the whole system etc.

I was working on the refurb on Saturday when the electricians were installing the lights and I now know that none of the above is going to be supplied.

The main chap told me that he will provide a MWC like he always does and he does not worry about the other certs. Never had a problem or query.

Do I worry too much .

Should I have installed the lights and supplied a mwc and took the cheque ?

Regards
 28 January 2013 10:25 AM
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Parsley

Posts: 1024
Joined: 04 November 2004

According to the NIC's inspection testing and certifcation book (I haven't got the latest version) an EIC is required for any work associated with an emergency lighting not a MEIWC.

Many of these refurb type jobs don't have detailed plans.

I have also seen emergency lighting PIR's for existing installations not designed to the current version of BS5266-1, where verification should have been carried out and a completion certificate issued. There's a new format in the 2011 version of BS5266 -1 and additional guidance for exisiting sites.

Regards
 28 January 2013 12:13 PM
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alanblaby

Posts: 375
Joined: 09 March 2012

Emergency lights, yes, a minefield if you havent done them before.
I've been doing an office block over the last couple of months, and have just about finished the testing and rectification of the lighting. I havent got any design criteria, which makes it a little difficult.
The installation/design certificates are there, and TBH, look pretty simple. The photometric data is given by the manufacturer, it was clearly not checked by the installer/certifier, as some of the batteries were not even connected.
Get the IET Electricians guide to EL, and some things will become clearer.
One of the log-books for EL is good too, - Syam do a good one, there is a lot of info in there, as well as unfilled model forms to fill in as required, along with the usual service routine logs.
 28 January 2013 01:49 PM
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OMS

Posts: 19694
Joined: 23 March 2004

Emergency lighting systems aren't difficult to deal with - they are largely rule based design and installation.

There is however, and awful lot of s!!t spouted about them by some people who really don't have a clue what they are talking about, based on outdated standards, misinformation, misinterpretation and down right bo****ks.

Notwithstanding what some installers appear to be allowed to get away with, these are often life safety systems - a less than intelligent client who hasn't asked won't help the designer/ installer who can't be ***** when/if it all goes wrong.

The main chap told me that he will provide a MWC like he always does and he does not worry about the other certs. Never had a problem or query.


I'm guessing you are involved in some design/installation role for this particular building or installation - you may just have a duty of care to your client over this.

Depending on your relationship with the client it might be worth a mention - particulary if the system prior to modification was subject to design/installation/commissioning (and possible verification) certification which Building Control will almost certainly wish to see (and are quite capable of pointing out problems).

In broad terms, whilst the electrical installation of emergency lights will need to meet BS 7671 and may well be subject to a MWC for altered circuits, the emergency lighting system will need to meet BS 5266 (all relevant parts and subsidiary equipment standards)

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 28 January 2013 09:15 PM
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tillie

Posts: 789
Joined: 03 May 2006

Hi , the building was refurbished last year and we are installing electrics for new partitioned offices throughout the building.

The fire alarm and emergency lighting system was installed by a big national company .

All certs etc are in the O and M manual.

When the Landlord realised the interior refurb was taking place they demanded plans , certs and they wanted to see the building control approval for the works.

This has now been provided.

The BC also came around and pointed out where they wanted extra emergency lighting.

This was when I was asked if I wanted the work.

I feel it is such a shame that I have to turn the work down just because of the complicated paperwork involved.

The job was basically to install extra lights about three metres away from the existing emergency lights because the new partitions meant that you could not see the exits properly.

So my main question is if I had installed the lights would I have to fill in the four page document to comply with BS5266 , and if so would I have to supply photometric data for the new lights.

Regards
 28 January 2013 09:52 PM
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Zs

Posts: 2925
Joined: 20 July 2006

Tillie, as I have mentioned on here before I have been involved with the upgrade of a very large emergency lighting system which has been something of a saga but I have enjoyed it. I did not install and did not select the fittings but was called in to inspect it. It was poor but I'm happy to say that now it is peachy.

Yes, I have filled in all of the paperwork which you mention and I have provide photmetric data which I obtained from the manufacturer of the fittings. I use relux and have given them some of those too. I am sure there is a choice of photometric data or something else on the forms?

On testing day I used a hired lux meter and walked the building in darkness with a witness. I specified two further lights (interestingly, not from the results of the meter but because we both identified a dark spot to which our eyes would not adjust quickly, the lux reading was well within limits).

The learning curve was pretty steep at first and I did a great deal of reading in my own time but I would gladly do this again, albeit I'd rather design and specify the installation properly from first principles than have to specify corrections. First aid points, fire alarms, extiguishers, compartments, panic areas and so on, it's good to get your teeth into and a diversion from wondering if type B is better than type C.

But yes, the paperwork is a trawl. That final folder is very satisfying though.

I was paid by the hour for this work and I know I would be very cautious about estimating or quoting for a whole job.

But yes, I could do this again and most of all I think I made a difference to the safety of the place by being bad-cop on a site for a few hours and giving some written advice and seeing it through.

Have O&M manual, testing tables to hand over to them. Along with CAD drawings of the building which they have never had before, even a disk of the wiring diagrams for them and a training day for the key staff coming up very soon. I like it and I have been paid promptly throughout so I would recommend it to you all.

I say dig your heels in Tillie and make them do it properly or stay away from responsibilty for an installer with a Minor Works Certificate. Unless of course it is the hallway of the village hall and your better judgement tells you that it is just fine.

OMS, are you ok? I note a bit of agression lately. Sending you hot chocolate with fluff on, in a tall glass with a long teaspoon so that you may sit and contemplate. Come and pull a bit of cable with me.

Zs
 28 January 2013 10:32 PM
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tillie

Posts: 789
Joined: 03 May 2006

Thanks for all replies chaps and Zs.

One last query if I may.

Next week I am revamping an small office, extra power and change of lightv fittings ( all supplied ).

Ten lights down and ten new lights up , one of which is an emergency version.

This sort of thing I do all the time and the emergency light will be included in the MWC for the lighting circuit.

Now should I be filling out the four page design ,installation,commissioning and verification cert along with photometric data ?

Regards
 29 January 2013 09:48 AM
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OMS

Posts: 19694
Joined: 23 March 2004

OK ? - yes, just about - but to paraphrase a news reporter - tired, hungry, wet, cold, miles from home and p****d off, really dreadfully p****d off.

OK Tillie - yes you should have paperwork for that single fitting (although 1 in a compartment etc may not comply) and you probably won't get tabulated photometrics for it - you'll need to calculate it as it's a conversion of a "mains luminaire" operating, in emergency mode at reduced output (effectively the ballast lumen factor).

The paperwork is a no real issue - having read your post and then having read Zs's response it appears to me that:

1 - You have installation work and need a bit of a hand with design and verification

2 - Zs is clearly quite competent at the design and verification and isn't desperately fussed by the installation work

I guess you don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out that if you two actually make contact then there could be a mutual benefit.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't be turning work down that needs a bit of simple paperwork and a bit of design thinking - you can buy that in, if you need to - think of it as adding value to what you offer.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
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