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Topic Title: EIC
Topic Summary: Schedual of items inspected
Created On: 22 January 2013 10:09 PM
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 22 January 2013 10:09 PM
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Martynduerden

Posts: 3211
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How can an EIC or any certificate for that matter be said to be correct when almost everyone fill them out differently?

Example

Barriers & Enclosures*Ticked Crossed or NA?

Obstacles - it now appears this is not on the tysoft certs - so never gets ticked.

Choice and setting of protective devices*?

I shall start with the admission that I almost always tick the first and not the second, To my mind a barrier would be a distribution board cover an obstacle would be a Neutral bar cover, both meet the definitions in part 2,

Although It could be argued that barriers and obstacles relate to the likes of Railings in front of Knife switches.

The second I personally see as setting on protective devices such as MCCB's & ACB's however given that the model EIC is undoubtedly designed for domestic premises this seems increasingly unlikely.

Segregation of band 1&2 circuits yet no consensus seems to exist on a distance?

Labelling of Protective devices. Switches & Terminals are marked and cables identified by colour but switches?

Another recent topic on Double Insulation - another perfect example where there is no consensus so who's correct who's certificate is beyond question?

*Cheers Spin & Others

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com

Edited: 23 January 2013 at 08:21 PM by Martynduerden
 22 January 2013 10:38 PM
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daveparry1

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barriers and obstacles = fences-railings etc. so n/a
choice and settings = eg, not having a 32amp breaker on a 1.00mm cable so if breaker appropriate (and not adjustable) tick
segregation of band 1 and band 2 = no telephone cables in trunking or conduit or through joist holes with 240 volt cables
labeling of protective devices = labels on consumer unit so tick if labels are present

That's just my take on it though Martyn, not saying it's correct in all cases but that's the way I do it!

Dave.
 22 January 2013 10:46 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: daveparry1

barriers and obstacles = fences-railings etc. so n/a


But how does that tally with the definitions in part 2?



choice and settings = eg, not having a 32amp breaker on a 1.00mm cable so if breaker appropriate (and not adjustable) tick


Mcb's don't have settings -they are purchased at a set rating



segregation of band 1 and band 2 = no telephone cables in trunking or conduit or through joist holes with 240 volt cables


Through the same hole fine Though you will find it incredibly dificult to pin that down to a standard, in the same trunking- Dado/skirting is one trunking.


labelling of protective devices = labels on consumer unit so tick if labels are present


Switches?


That's just my take on it though Martyn, not saying it's correct in all cases but that's the way I do it!

Dave.


My point exactly who's to say what is right?

-------------------------
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Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 22 January 2013 10:59 PM
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daveparry1

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Rightly or wrongly Martyn I don't read too much into these things, I just read the question and answer it!
As for the choice and setting question, if it's an mcb it won't have a setting so provided it's chosen correctly it gets a tick.
Switches, I take that as main switches, not individual light switches etc.
Dave.
 23 January 2013 07:51 AM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: spinlondon

I think Martin, you need to edit your OP.

I'm not aware that CPCs can be set.


Done Cheers!

Where's the proof reader when you need 'em!

-------------------------
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Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 23 January 2013 08:33 AM
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rutts

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Think you need to edit again. It's Barriers or Enclosures, not Obstacles. Obstacles along with placing out of reach are their own tick box and are reserved, as I'm sure your aware, for locations such as as switch rooms and substations.

So for Barriers or Enclosures it's a tick from me. Cause an enclosure is, as you say, DB covers, joint box lids, etc, etc
Choice and setting is also a tick. Sure you can't set and MCB but you have to choose it so it's the correct choice.
That's my take.
 23 January 2013 10:13 AM
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kj scott

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Originally posted by: Martynduerden

How can an EIC or any certificate for that matter be said to be correct when almost everyone fill them out differently?

Example

Barriers & obstacles Ticked Crossed or NA?

For an EIC you only have the options of tick or N/A.

From definitions,

'Barrier. A part providing a defined degree of protection against contact with live parts from any usual direction of access'.

'Enclosure. A part providing protection of equipment against certain external influences and in any direction providing basic protection'.

An example of a barrier would be a blanking way in a DB or CCU; since this is also coupled with enclosures on the schedule it is most commonly a tick.


Choice and setting of protective devices?

I shall start with the admission that I almost always tick the first and not the second, To my mind a barrier would be a distribution board cover an obstacle would be a Neutral bar cover, both meet the definitions in part 2,

Although It could be argued that barriers and obstacles relate to the likes of Railings in front of Knife switches.

The second I personally see as setting on protective devices such as MCCB's & ACB's however given that the model EIC is undoubtedly designed for domestic premises this seems increasingly unlikely.

The model form of inspection is generic; and includes domestic, commercial and industrial installations; that aside it says choice and setting, which would include all types of devices, including fuses.

Segregation of band 1& 2 circuits yet no consensus seems to exist on a distance?

Guidance on distance is given in GN1, Onsite guide and several other British Standards, such as BS 6701:2010, BS EN 50174-2:2009 +A1 2011 and BS EN 50174-3:2003.

Labelling of Protective devices. Switches & Terminals are marked and cables identified by colour but switches?

'514.1.1 Except where there is no possibility of confusion, a label or other suitable means of identification shall be provided to indicate the purpose of each item of switchgear and controlgear'.

Another recent topic on Double Insulation - another perfect example where there is no consensus so who's correct who's certificate is beyond question?

There will never be consensus unless a clear statement is made within BS 7671; or manufacturers align their product information with BS7671 terminology; however if we are considering meter tails, or twin and earth to BS 6004, these are insulated and sheathed cables.
412.2.4.1 (ii) then recognises them as meeting the requirements of 412.2; which is the topic heading and non specific. Note 1 below the regulation also makes reference to cable standards and uses the term 'at least equivalent to'; so equivalent but not double insulation.

Who is correct? That would be the person with the most convincing answers on the day; and no one person can be be beyond question.




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 23 January 2013 08:00 PM
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Zs

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ahem, I have to declare an interest your honours. Permission to approach the bench?

Mart and I had a big electricians' type of barney about some tick boxes the other night your Lordships, especially the choice and setting box. If I chose the breaker then I chose it for a reason your Wigships, so I can tick the box.

The obsacles one, Sirs, I might just back down on and agree that a neutral bar cover could be described as an obstacle, well, very broadly speaking....But, your steamships, I could happily argue that corner on the basis that IMHO a neutral bar cover forms part of an enclosure and once you've got the door of the board open it is hardly an obstacle.

Henceforth, all tick boxes will be ignored unless I ticked them myself.

Retiring to special room with dark oak panels and large green books.

Zs
 23 January 2013 08:19 PM
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Martynduerden

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Right I have made a balls up of the OP Sorry guys - I shall refrain from posting after 10pm in the future - probably not.

I have now corrected the errors in my post or will do in the net two minutes.

Sorry folks!

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 23 January 2013 08:47 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: kj scott

Originally posted by: Martynduerden


How can an EIC or any certificate for that matter be said to be correct when almost everyone fill them out differently?

Example

Barriers & Enclosures Ticked Crossed or NA?

For an EIC you only have the options of tick or N/A.

From definitions,

'Barrier. A part providing a defined degree of protection against contact with live parts from any usual direction of access'.

'Enclosure. A part providing protection of equipment against certain external influences and in any direction providing basic protection'.

An example of a barrier would be a blanking way in a DB or CCU; since this is also coupled with enclosures on the schedule it is most commonly a tick.


Choice and setting of protective devices?

I shall start with the admission that I almost always tick the first and not the second, To my mind a barrier would be a distribution board cover an obstacle would be a Neutral bar cover, both meet the definitions in part 2,

Although It could be argued that barriers and obstacles relate to the likes of Railings in front of Knife switches.

The second I personally see as setting on protective devices such as MCCB's & ACB's however given that the model EIC is undoubtedly designed for domestic premises this seems increasingly unlikely.

The model form of inspection is generic; and includes domestic, commercial and industrial installations; that aside it says choice and setting, which would include all types of devices, including fuses.


Choice and setting

I choose a 6A mcb I do not set it any differently because I cannot, it has no means of adjustment.

Choice and rating would be entirely different


Segregation of band 1& 2 circuits yet no consensus seems to exist on a distance?

Guidance on distance is given in GN1, Onsite guide and several other British Standards, such as BS 6701:2010, BS EN 50174-2:2009 +A1 2011 and BS EN 50174-3:2003.



Guidance is of little use to a person in the dock - I'm not suggesting one would be for this particular box but in the greater scheme of an alleged defective EIC I imagine every box and line would come under scrutiny.

Any Extracts from 6701 or 50174 ? Mainly for future reference I was unlucky enough to be working in the same building as an Alarm Engineer (Used so loosly its untrue) who thought it acceptable to wrap his cables through and around mine.

Also worth noting Most electricians I come across are not aware of any standard other then 7671, Those on this forum are obviously excluded as different breed.


Labelling of Protective devices. Switches & Terminals are marked and cables identified by colour but switches?

'514.1.1 Except where there is no possibility of confusion, a label or other suitable means of identification shall be provided to indicate the purpose of each item of switchgear and control gear'.


I'm not sure a light switch is switchgear or control gear but I suppose it broadly meets the definition of switchgear, Confusion is everywhere on a daily basis.

Another recent topic on Double Insulation - another perfect example where there is no consensus so who's correct who's certificate is beyond question?

There will never be consensus unless a clear statement is made within BS 7671; or manufacturers align their product information with BS7671 terminology; however if we are considering meter tails, or twin and earth to BS 6004, these are insulated and sheathed cables.

412.2.4.1 (ii) then recognises them as meeting the requirements of 412.2; which is the topic heading and non specific. Note 1 below the regulation also makes reference to cable standards and uses the term 'at least equivalent to'; so equivalent but not double insulation.


Totally aggree

Who is correct? That would be the person with the most convincing answers on the day; and no one person can be be beyond question.




I guess that means there is more than one correct way to fill out an EIC

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 23 January 2013 08:57 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: Zs

ahem, I have to declare an interest your honours. Permission to approach the bench?

Mart and I had a big electricians' type of barney about some tick boxes the other night your Lordships, especially the choice and setting box. If I chose the breaker then I chose it for a reason your Wigships, so I can tick the box.


We should have a "barny" more often you weren't scary at all!


The obstacles one, Sirs, I might just back down on and agree that a neutral bar cover could be described as an obstacle, well, very broadly speaking....But, your steamships, I could happily argue that corner on the basis that IMHO a neutral bar cover forms part of an enclosure and once you've got the door of the board open it is hardly an obstacle.


I would suggest it has started to perform its function as soon as you remove the cover- It is preventing you unintentionally accessing the bar BUT still allows you to if you try,

I'm not sure its part of the enclosure, more part of the contents in the enclosure,

Section 417 does not seem to contradict this.

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 23 January 2013 09:09 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11374
Joined: 13 August 2003

Not sure I'm picking out the latest version, but...

Choice and setting

I choose a 6A mcb I do not set it any differently because I cannot, it has no means of adjustment.

Choice and rating would be entirely different


OK, no prizes for plain English for the IET.

I think it should ideally read "Choice and, if applicable, adjustment of protective devices". Choice covers rating, type (B/C/D etc), fixed time delay etc. Settings (or I'd call them adustments) covers the %age setting on MCCBs, timings and thresholds on earth leakage relays and so on - neither entirely unknown on 100A-per-phase installations.

I guess they're just wanting something snappy to fit on the checklist.

Labelling of Protective devices. Switches & Terminals are marked and cables identified by colour but switches?

To me that says the thing on the kitchen wall that looks like a lightswitch but actually controls the immersion upstairs in the airing cupboard really should be labelled "IMMERSION HEATER" and not just left blank. Ditto for anything else (fused spurs, isolators, motor control units, submain fuses) that you can't reasonably see what it controls just by looking at it and its immediate surroundings.

- Andy.
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