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Topic Title: ECS card
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Created On: 22 January 2013 01:11 PM
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 25 January 2013 11:33 AM
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Parsley

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The problem is OMS, the majority don't work for companies that according to a recent industry publication employ 18,000 people worldwide.

Unfortunately most small contractors just see this as more red tape.

Regards
 25 January 2013 12:09 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: Parsley

The problem is OMS, the majority don't work for companies that according to a recent industry publication employ 18,000 people worldwide.

Which is why we do it - we are big enough to make a difference, people listen when we say that we are getting CSCS cards for all staff, regardless if they have to go on site or not. When the guys at the top have to roll up thier sleeves and swot for a H&S test, it gets embedded in the organization culture. You see loads of people with the CSCS card back to back with thier works ID cards - it's highly visible and it does change attitudes.


Unfortunately most small contractors just see this as more red tape.

Maybe - but without it, they'll soon be ex contractors. How difficult is it to add CSCS or ECS or whatever to existing H&S policies, and embedd the culture in a SME - easier than in a global market I guess.

It's easier to get a UK operator to understand UK construction practice in the UK than it is to get an intermediate electrical designer to understand it when he's based in India and normally designing for work in Dubai undertaken by US backed construction companies employing Indian and Philipino labour, with what has to be described as a "commercial" approach to the site safety of guys who are broadly unidentifiable



Regards


OMS

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Failure is always an option
 25 January 2013 12:13 PM
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OMS

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Something to ponder - personally, I think CSCS and ECS fits in well with it:

I could have saved a life today
but chose to look the other way.

It wasn't that I didn't care.
I had the time, and I was there
but I didn't want to seem a fool
and argue over safety rules.

I knew he'd done the job before.
if I called it wrong, he might get sore.
The chances didn't seem that bad.
(I've done the same. He knew I had.)

So I shook my head and walked on by.
He knew the risks as well as I.
He took the chance, I closed my eye
and with that act I let him die.

I could have saved a life that day
but chose to look the other way.

Now every time I see his wife
I know I should have saved his life.
I see his kids and feel so sad.
They cry at night. They've lost their Dad.

That guilt is something I must bear
but isn't something you need share.
If you see a risk that others take,
that puts their health or life at stake ..

... The question asked, or things you say
could help them live another day.
If YOU see a risk and walk away,
then hope YOU never have to say

I could have saved a life today
but chose to look the other way.



Think on guys - we still kill plenty in construction every year - we've a long way to go yet

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 25 January 2013 01:45 PM
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Martynduerden

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OMS The only issue with that post is its a nonsense, the cscs card proves and tests nothing other than the ability or corporations to waste an awful lot of time mand money, private sector fine its thier time and money public sector, well that's my money thier wasting.

I have no issue with H&S it just needs to be taught and tested correctly, can I drill a hole in my hard hat - I meen come on your an inteligent guy you cannot possibly see this as vital training!

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Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 25 January 2013 01:55 PM
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John Peckham

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I got a bit stuck on the following question.

If a fire starts on site what should you do? Tick one box.

1. Stop work and get a cup of tea.
2. Go and watch the fire.
3. Tell your mates.
4. Raise the alarm.

Clearly you would want to do all of the first 3 things!

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John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 25 January 2013 02:01 PM
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GeoffBlackwell

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5) Get some big spuds, wrap them in foil and bake them in the fire - nice.



Regards

Geoff Blackwell - Master Chef contender.

Edited: 25 January 2013 at 02:11 PM by GeoffBlackwell
 25 January 2013 02:04 PM
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John Peckham

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Geoff

I think you would need a Food Hygiene Certificate before you could do that.

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John Peckham

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 25 January 2013 02:11 PM
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GeoffBlackwell

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Ah I forgot that - it will have to be down the chippy then.

Regards

Geoff Blackwell
 25 January 2013 02:11 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: Martynduerden

OMS The only issue with that post is its a nonsense, the cscs card proves and tests nothing other than the ability or corporations to waste an awful lot of time mand money, private sector fine its thier time and money public sector, well that's my money thier wasting.

So no one submiting to the H&S process for CSCS learns anything from it - didn't Zs mentions rat wee earlier - I wonder if that would normally be in the knowledge base of electrical contractors without some instruction.

I think your view on this doesn't even begin to consider the costs of injury and fatality in the construction industry - simple implementation of a "safety card" scheme is net positive in my experience.



I have no issue with H&S it just needs to be taught and tested correctly,

So how would you do it then Martyn ?

can I drill a hole in my hard hat - I meen come on your an inteligent guy you cannot possibly see this as vital training!


really - we are talking about the construction sector here Martyn - and you operate in a fairly narrow bit of it and you have above average intelligence principally determined by the fact that you operate in a mech an elec discipline - you also have some age and experience.

Don't forget that construction also employs many people who earn a living with a greater proportion of muscle and a lesser proportion of brains right down to the simpler tasks being given to younger people - we need to deal with people at the right level - telling 17 year old labourers not to drill holes in a hard hat in mid July on a restricted site when it's f**king hot enough to boil your brain is probably not such a bad plan. Same thing as telling them to get covered up and wear sunscreen and to know where the water coolers are and how to basically recognise the onset of heat stress


At risk of causing offence, there are plenty of "dull" people in construction, probably more than any other sector, other than perhaps certain Army units - simple rules are easy to implement, simple scenarios stick in the mind.

As as more intelligent member of the construction industry, we would do well to remember that.


- and my apologies for this bit of my post - but that's the reality



Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 25 January 2013 02:22 PM
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John Peckham

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I have to so a classroom session and assessment once a year to get my entry permit for the London Underground. Rats an Leptospirosis are included along with badgers and Japanese Knot-weed.

As for OMS stating certain regiments in the army are a bit "dull" the RAF would think that was a bit of an optimistic view," talking freight " was the collective term used by the premier service when ladies were present.

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John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 25 January 2013 02:35 PM
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Avatar for OMS.
OMS

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Originally posted by: John Peckham

I have to so a classroom session and assessment once a year to get my entry permit for the London Underground. Rats an Leptospirosis are included along with badgers and Japanese Knot-weed.

Good Oh - you'll know something now that you didn't before then John - what's the problem ?


As for OMS stating certain regiments in the army are a bit "dull" the RAF would think that was a bit of an optimistic view," talking freight " was the collective term used by the premier service when ladies were present.

For sure John - but you'll understand my point - the CSCS test isn't directly aimed at consultant engineers - it's aimed at the site operatives - you probably need both brain cells to fly the Chinook - you only need one to go storming down the ramp with about 50kg on the hump and a gimpy in the middle of Helmand



Regimentally yours - OMS

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 25 January 2013 04:47 PM
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TeesdaleSpark

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The JIB card isn't red tape it saves companies money. Companies have a legal duty to check that the people that they allow on site/employ are competent to do the job. The JIB card does that for them and it gets the card holder on site/in job with the minimum of fuss and delay. There would be a hell a lot of red tape if every job you went to someone had to sit down read your CV and check your qualifications before allowing you to start. It's not like any qualified electrician can't get a card - all you have to do is fill in a form and take a very easy H&S test.

It's the same with engineers if your registered with the Engineering Council the company that employs you can employ you knowing that someone has already checked your competent to do the job.
People in the industry are always whinging about how little we get paid. If everybody insisted on only employing qualified people we would all be a bit better off financially and otherwise.
 25 January 2013 05:20 PM
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Jobbo

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Looking at some of the benefits:

Provides national and international recognition that you're competent to carry out electrotechnical work to UK standards in the areas or occupations identified by the card

Is required to permit you access to construction sites (and in some cases, properties) to carry out your work

Is backed by government and industry

Is based on the recognised standards for the electrotechnical industry
Displays your qualification, training, health & safety and identity credentials

Is endorsed and supported by employers and industry, including the UK Competent Person Schemes for domestic electrical work (Part P of the Building Regulations)
 25 January 2013 06:36 PM
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jcm256

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What actually is talked about on this thread, is it the electro technical certification scheme with Jib grading plus CSCS logo on the card to show that you have taken the H & S test.

Can electricians not get a stand-alone CSCS card without a NVQ level 3?

On some Quarries, which are a stickler on H & S, you need much more
Separate courses; working at heights, enclosed spaces, Extractives quarry products, etc.

From lookup on internet:
In order to get a card you must first pass a valid, relevant health and safety test. The test sat must be relevant to your particular job role, i.e. - a supervisor will not seat a manager's test and vies versa. The health & safety test must be redone at least every 18months, unless you hold a valid CSCS card.
Some CSCS cards will require prior relevant qualifications or their equivalents. For instance, a carpenter with an NVQ Level 3 (or city and guilds certificate) can get 1 of three cards depending on their role on site. They could get either a green card, a blue card or even a gold/white card. While a carpenter with only a Level 2 can only have a green or blue card.
http://www.constructionaidline...jYONhLUCFePHtAodgTQAiA
 25 January 2013 06:58 PM
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Avatar for OMS.
OMS

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Can electricians not get a stand-alone CSCS card without a NVQ level 3?


All the electricians cards are affiliated via ECS, so in short, no they can't

Regards

OMS

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 25 January 2013 07:18 PM
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spinlondon

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The cards don't actually show your qualifications.
Qualifications such as the 2360 which are no longer extant, are not shown.
All my card (graded as Installation Electrican) shows is that I hold the 2382.
 25 January 2013 07:52 PM
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Jobbo

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The cards only show, what they consider relevant qualifications, examples being, 2391, 2377, 2382 & Compex. Lets not forget, not only do they want qualifications, they also want experience, hence why so many people struggle to obtain one. The IET back the JIB system, so that must say something about the scheme, enabling gold card holders fast track technician membership (TMIET) and platinum holders full membership (MIET).

The engineering council also encourage NVQs for direct fast track applications.

Regards

Jobbo
 29 January 2013 12:31 PM
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mark2spark

Posts: 1444
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Originally posted by: Parsley
...the ECS cards have been around for many years, it's your livelihood and you've chosen not to keep up to date.


?? No I haven't? I said in the OP I haven't worked on site for over 10 years.
Are you saying that I should apply and pay for a card that I wouldn't need or use?
Perhaps I should also have a certificate so that I can service MRI scanners or x-ray machines?
What about a Gas Safe certificate. I don't do gas work either.

Daft.

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I am prone to talking complete bol***ks at times, please accept my apologies in advance.
 29 January 2013 12:35 PM
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mark2spark

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Originally posted by: Jobbo

If a consultant was to recommend to his client the best way to assess an electrician (not contractor) in his competency to carry out electrical work, what would he/she recommend?.


Perhaps a member of a Part P scheme?
At least there would be a checked insurance policy in place. Unlike an ECS card.

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I am prone to talking complete bol***ks at times, please accept my apologies in advance.
 29 January 2013 12:45 PM
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mark2spark

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Originally posted by: spinlondon

The cards don't actually show your qualifications.

Qualifications such as the 2360 which are no longer extant, are not shown.

All my card (graded as Installation Electrican) shows is that I hold the 2382.


It appears that NVQ 3 isn't a 'qualification' then?
Ha ha ha, it gets better

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I am prone to talking complete bol***ks at times, please accept my apologies in advance.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » ECS card

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