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Topic Title: Hairdressers shower supply
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Created On: 21 January 2013 11:38 PM
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 21 January 2013 11:38 PM
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SKElectrical

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A plumber friend (or should I say heating engineer? - no no definitely a plumber who has gas safe) has asked me to install elec shower at hairdressers.
There is already a condensing boiler on site, but he says it's too far away! The c/u is also 15m away.
I'm just thinking - wouldn't it make more sense to install a cylinder acting as Indirect HW supply? Can this setup be achieved using a condenser boiler which also already supplies direct HW?

I guess that its just another "zone" needing its own stat controlled valve?
 21 January 2013 11:55 PM
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Martynduerden

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You could install a zone valve for a cylinder in to the F/R of a combi but unless you installed two at the boiler position you'd need to have the CH on all the time ...

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Martyn.

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 22 January 2013 12:12 AM
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peteTLM

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reminds me of an old thread, but i think that concluded that a domestic shower wasnt made for the constant use in an hairdressers.....................also i hate electric showers!

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 22 January 2013 12:20 AM
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SKElectrical

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but unless you installed two at the boiler position you'd need to have the CH on all the time ...


"two"? You mean two in total? ;
surely just one other zone valve for CH circuit would suffice?
The CH would need to be left on at the boiler but could be controlled via a room stat.
(costs are mounting here...)
I'm really starting to think just lag the HW pipes and install a mixer shower? especially having just seen prices of cylinders!
thanks for replying.
 22 January 2013 12:36 AM
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Martynduerden

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I'm assuming its a system boiler,

Yes two valves or a three port. One for the cylinder one for the ch to control it seperatly,

But your no better off you still need a pipe from the boiler to the cylinder.

Lagging the pipes is a far cheaper option assuming it will still fever you the heat say 30 degrees on a winter day?

15m of cable is going to be a better option...

Don't install a domestic shower it won't last!

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Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 22 January 2013 12:59 AM
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SKElectrical

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Out of curiosity, why do you consider an elec shower the better option than lagging pipe from boiler?
 22 January 2013 01:29 AM
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Martynduerden

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If the run is as long as enough to ba a problem lagging is not going to give you a decent temperature.

How long is the run in what size ?

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Martyn.

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www.electrical contractors uk.com
 22 January 2013 08:07 AM
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broadgage

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Lagging the pipe from the boiler to the shower would help to an extent.
With the shower in use at any normal flow rate, the temperature drop from the boiler to the shower will be very small and of no consequence.

If however the shower is unused for a while, then the water in the pipe will become cold and there will a delay in obtaining hot water at the shower. With a long pipe this delay may be considered unacceptable.
Lagging the pipe delays the cooling of the water in the pipe but can not prevent it.
For example an unlagged pipe might cool in 10 minutes and a lagged one in 30 minutes, so if the shower goes 40 minutes between uses the water will still be cold initialy despite lagging the pipe from the boiler to the shower.
 22 January 2013 09:23 AM
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aligarjon

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i went out to a domestic shower at a hairdresser that had caught fire a few years ago. The manufacturer said they weren't meant for commercial use. They did however go out and replace it at their expence very quickly. ( i don't know what they fitted in its place )

Gary

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 22 January 2013 01:17 PM
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AlanKay

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Electric showers aren't noted for their high water flow rate, so why not plumb from the existing HW system in 10mm microbore pipe? There will be a LOT less water in the pipe to go cold, so time delay before hot arrives will be minimal. You'll need a cold feed too of course for the mixer tap.

- just an idea.

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Alan Kay, CEng MIEE
 22 January 2013 01:40 PM
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SKElectrical

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Originally posted by: AlanKay

Electric showers aren't noted for their high water flow rate, so why not plumb from the existing HW system in 10mm microbore pipe? There will be a LOT less water in the pipe to go cold, so time delay before hot arrives will be minimal.



I agree.
The man in charge does not. So cheap elec shower it is.
Not my choice.
 22 January 2013 02:50 PM
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OMS

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Can't you trace heat the dead leg flow pipe -that'll maintain temperature at least (double wrap and it'll probably increase temperature)

Should sort out your potential legionella risks as well - aerosol spray from the shower first thing in the morning has to be a risk that L8 would consider.

Regards

OMS

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 22 January 2013 02:58 PM
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aligarjon

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Originally posted by: SKElectrical

Originally posted by: AlanKay



Electric showers aren't noted for their high water flow rate, so why not plumb from the existing HW system in 10mm microbore pipe? There will be a LOT less water in the pipe to go cold, so time delay before hot arrives will be minimal.






I agree.

The man in charge does not. So cheap elec shower it is.

Not my choice.



I would check the shower instructions before you wire it up, it might not be your choice but its your insurance that won't pay out if you haven't followed manufacturers instructions.


Gary

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Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 22 January 2013 05:04 PM
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sparkingchip

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Possibly the old post Pete refers to above


http://www.theiet.org/Forums/f...keyword1=hairdressers


Andy
 28 January 2013 07:53 PM
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SKElectrical

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Originally posted by: AlanKay

Electric showers aren't noted for their high water flow rate, so why not plumb from the existing HW system in 10mm microbore pipe? There will be a LOT less water in the pipe to go cold, so time delay before hot arrives will be minimal. You'll need a cold feed too of course for the mixer tap.
- just an idea.


First and foremost I agree with the above.
The boiler is a condenser - not system or conventional (not sure of difference between these 2).
Here is the reply from the plumber...

"the cold would have to be in 10mm also. tell ur mate to go back to college and learn about the difference between flow rate and pressure. Imagine you have got a shower designed for a certain flow rate achieved via 15mm or 22-15mm reduced (if required as the instructions will state) that will be running at a sh*t flow rate when supplied by 10mm. Just because an elec shower has a sh*t flow doesn't mean fit a mixer and have that be sh*t too!
The idea is that if there is a problem with boiler, then the whole business doesn't grind to halt too."


It would still be far better than an elec shower!!! So what if the cold is supplied in 10mm too. and don't try and blind us with the "difference between flow & pressure".
Plumbers can not see the wider picture.

As it happens I will be making a nice butty tomorrow but I do feel for the end cust who will bear both the higher installation cost, and the higher running cost, as well as the inevitable failure of the shower!
 28 January 2013 08:50 PM
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londonlec

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Typical abusive response from a pipe monkey.

You've done your best, just fit it and move on pal
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