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Topic Title: Why us sparkies are fools
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Created On: 19 January 2013 12:33 PM
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 20 January 2013 03:59 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: Martynduerden

Originally posted by: OMS

No gs registered fitter in his right mind would sign off someone else's work, it may not leak but that's only half the story.


I beg to differ Martyn - I see it every day in the commercial world and I know plenty of gas fitters who do it regularly in the domestic arena.

Pipeline integrity test, pressure drop measurement and an inspection of the burner train assembly, and setting where appropriate coupled with an inspection of the flue and ventilation is about it for what Dave needs. The hydraulic side of the boiler for DHW and LTHW isn't considered. If the gas fiter has any doubts then there is no paperwork provided and remedials need to be undertaken.





That's not necessarily true the hydraulic side is occasionally behind a case seal boiler in which case it is considered a gas seal.

Yes, I know that Martyn - it's pretty rare though


Signing off NEW work done by a person not a member of the class of persons Is against the law where money or other gain is involved.

So apprentices can't work on gas then, Martyn ? - I don't think so



We do ourselves no favours in either industry by "signing off" work by the unregistered/untrained/incompetant etc.


Unregistered is one thing - untrained and/or incompetant is quite another - most gas techs can spot the difference quite easily. It's no different really to getting a CEng to sign off the work of the design team in some sectors.



Aggreed but we are very quick to condemn the unregistered electrician - cant have it both ways

Correction - personally I have no problems with "unregistered" - "incompetent" is another thing. You'll recall my commentary on a national register of electricians for example or my responses to AJ and Leeward

There are others who have an issue with unregisterd however



I'm not suggesting that you are not capable but would you be happy to issue an EIC to a plumber who rewired his own house?


Depends on what I found at the first fix and on completion inspection really Martyn - and if said plumber was capable of signing off my gas install of course -

Regards

OMS


And tree in lies the rub


In what way Martyn - about 90% of commercial installs I see are undertaken by an installing gang and inspected by a testing gang - very often without the relevant "gangs" ever meeting (or even being in the same building at the same time). It happens - there is usually no problem, we're in deep reccession, clients have adopted the worst practices of the baazar - it's inevitable really, don't you think

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 20 January 2013 04:07 PM
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daveparry1

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where money or other gain is involved.
-----------------
In that case I won't charge him for swapping the boiler over then Martyn!
You really can't compare the complexities of electrical work wiuth straightforward plumbing pipework, copper pipe and soldered fittings is the same whether it's gas or water, i'm really not putting gas fitters down here, I know there are rules and regulations to be followed just the same as there are for our work and I know some pretty good sparks that are unable to do anything that doesn't involve wires!
Like the ones that won't plaster in their chases or take up floorboards and re-fit them, replace immersion heaters etc. but for anyone that's spent a lifetime putting things together and repairing stuff soldering a few pipe joints isn't too difficult, and remember someone will be testing my pipework other than me,

Dave.
 20 January 2013 04:15 PM
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Martynduerden

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It's not that rare most potterton's baxi, Worcester Viessmann are case seal, it's about knowing, you don't know what you don't know which is where the issues arise.

You are well aware I'm not suggesting its rocket science - just pointing out a few considerations,

Apprentices must be under the supervision of a GSR installer, again as you know we are not talking about trainees, the question related to an unregistered individual carrying out gas work for profit or benefit, and calling in the GSR installer for the BR notification.

You seemed to be referring to one dodgy favour for another.

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 January 2013 04:17 PM
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OMS

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We have a name for that Dave - it's called multi-skilled - where a bit of additional training/instruction/experience builds upon what a person already has - particularly the transferable skills -

soldering a few pipe joints isn't too difficult


LoL - I hear gasafe have issued a fatwa, Dave - take cover !! -

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 20 January 2013 04:19 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: daveparry1

where money or other gain is involved.

-----------------

In that case I won't charge him for swapping the boiler over then Martyn!

You really can't compare the complexities of electrical work wiuth straightforward plumbing pipework, copper pipe and soldered fittings is the same whether it's gas or water, i'm really not putting gas fitters down here, I know there are rules and regulations to be followed just the same as there are for our work and I know some pretty good sparks that are unable to do anything that doesn't involve wires!

Like the ones that won't plaster in their chases or take up floorboards and re-fit them, replace immersion heaters etc. but for anyone that's spent a lifetime putting things together and repairing stuff soldering a few pipe joints isn't too difficult, and remember someone will be testing my pipework other than me,

Dave.


Dave you cannot have it both ways, either electrical work is complex or its just clipping a bit of 2.5 for everything and it'll be fine.

Gas work is complex or it is sling a bit of 22mm in and everything will be fine.

Incidentally the work you are talking about probably requires a section of 28mm copper but you won't know that unless you design for all the appliances...

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 January 2013 04:26 PM
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daveparry1

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Thanks for the mention of the 28mm Martyn although it's only about a 6ft run from the meter so i'm thinking 22 will suffice but i'll check with whoever I get to check it out,

Dave.
 20 January 2013 04:30 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: daveparry1

Thanks for the mention of the 28mm Martyn although it's only about a 6ft run from the meter so i'm thinking 22 will suffice but i'll check with whoever I get to check it out,

Dave.


Unless it's the only gas appliance it is unlikely to be just about the run length to the boiler , and even if it is the only appliance I wouldn't give it a second thought 28mm every time.

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 January 2013 04:39 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: Martynduerden

It's not that rare most potterton's baxi, Worcester Viessmann are case seal, it's about knowing, you don't know what you don't know which is where the issues arise.

OK - lets assume then that the vast majority are case seal - talking to the gas fitter will identify that won't it. taking the cover off before the gas is connected isn't a problem, the gas fitter will check the case seals on completion for either positive or negative pressure arrangements - it'll be part of the prescribed checks ?


You are well aware I'm not suggesting its rocket science - just pointing out a few considerations,

Indeed


Apprentices must be under the supervision of a GSR installer, again as you know we are not talking about trainees, the question related to an unregistered individual carrying out gas work for profit or benefit, and calling in the GSR installer for the BR notification.

Mmmmm - installing pipework before it's filled with gas isn't work on a gas fitting in accordance with GSIUR, Martyn - the gas safe guys will need to examine that as part of testing, commissioning and certification.


You seemed to be referring to one dodgy favour for another.

Not really - hence the wink - I was just attempting to clarify at least my understanding of what 3rd party certification entails - and I think it differs from yours and aligns perhaps with my inital response to dave.




regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 20 January 2013 04:45 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: Martynduerden

Originally posted by: daveparry1



Thanks for the mention of the 28mm Martyn although it's only about a 6ft run from the meter so i'm thinking 22 will suffice but i'll check with whoever I get to check it out,



Dave.




Unless it's the only gas appliance it is unlikely to be just about the run length to the boiler , and even if it is the only appliance I wouldn't give it a second thought 28mm every time.


Is that to avoid reference to tabulated pressure drops, Martyn - from memory here but 22mm would do around 5.8cubic metres/hour (approx 64KW) over 6m - so I guess Dave isn't far away with his inital selection for an approx 35 - 40kw boiler.

I agree other appliances would influence that sizing or selection

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 20 January 2013 04:51 PM
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sparkingchip

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Picking up on Dave's comment "would you be happy to issue an EIC to a plumber who rewired his own house?"

I would not be happy signing off the electrical work a plumber had done on a boiler install, never mind a whole house.

However as it appears that from April part P does not require a notification of the installation of boiler control circuits, they can crack on with the wiring and charge the customer for it happy in the knowledge that no part P notification is required to complicate things.

Andy
 20 January 2013 04:52 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: OMS

Originally posted by: Martynduerden

It's not that rare most potterton's baxi, Worcester Viessmann are case seal, it's about knowing, you don't know what you don't know which is where the issues arise.

OK - lets assume then that the vast majority are case seal - talking to the gas fitter will identify that won't it. taking the cover off before the gas is connected isn't a problem, the gas fitter will check the case seals on completion for either positive or negative pressure arrangements - it'll be part of the prescribed checks ?

You are well aware I'm not suggesting its rocket science - just pointing out a few considerations,

Indeed


Apprentices must be under the supervision of a GSR installer, again as you know we are not talking about trainees, the question related to an unregistered individual carrying out gas work for profit or benefit, and calling in the GSR installer for the BR notification.

Mmmmm - installing pipework before it's filled with gas isn't work on a gas fitting in accordance with GSIUR, Martyn - the gas safe guys will need to examine that as part of testing, commissioning and certification.

You seemed to be referring to one dodgy favour for another.

Not really - hence the wink - I was just attempting to clarify at least my understanding of what 3rd party certification entails - and I think it differs from yours and aligns perhaps with my inital response to dave.


regards

OMS


If you basing the debate on technicalities of when a pipe becomes a gas pipe then I might suggest installing specific gas fittings on the run indicates knowledge that it is indeed gas work.

Dave was referring to doing all the work with the exception of final connection, in that situation he would have completed gas work by virtue of working on gas fittings - I am not sure GSIUR makes the distinction between filled with gas or not.

Will he use ptfe on the connection to the boiler would I be able to tell once connected....

If I was to take on board your argument then what you seem to be saying is anyone in any trade who can solder pipes should crack on with a bit of plumbing or gas work.

You know what is involved, I suspect the devil has found his advocate

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 January 2013 05:08 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: Martynduerden


If you basing the debate on technicalities of when a pipe becomes a gas pipe then I might suggest installing specific gas fittings on the run indicates knowledge that it is indeed gas work.

It may well be the case Martyn - I was looking at the practical aspects of it given the wide variance in my response and yours


Dave was referring to doing all the work with the exception of final connection, in that situation he would have completed gas work by virtue of working on gas fittings - I am not sure GSIUR makes the distinction between filled with gas or not.

OK - well, as I said - I see plumbers putting in gas pipework - regularly in fact - and then the gas fitter popping in to do the relevant checks/tests/commissioning/certification. Now we either have a whole industry working on the knock or we have different opinions on what GSIUR says - which may differ from what gas safe recommend

Will he use ptfe on the connection to the boiler would I be able to tell once connected....

No idea Martyn - one for Dave I guess. It'll depend on the practical male and female thread in question, the coarsness of that thread etc.

PTFE tape isn't the only acceptable method of course, joint paste etc may be acceptable - you might want to see so called "gas tape" present - there are many possibilities i guess


If I was to take on board your argument then what you seem to be saying is anyone in any trade who can solder pipes should crack on with a bit of plumbing or gas work.

You know what is involved, I suspect the devil has found his advocate

LoL - OK Martyn - lets not hide behind particular skill sets here - I'm sure we could both find increasingly unlikely reasons as to why only a very small select group of people should do any particular job



regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 20 January 2013 05:19 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: OMS

Originally posted by: Martynduerden

If you basing the debate on technicalities of when a pipe becomes a gas pipe then I might suggest installing specific gas fittings on the run indicates knowledge that it is indeed gas work.

It may well be the case Martyn - I was looking at the practical aspects of it given the wide variance in my response and yours

Dave was referring to doing all the work with the exception of final connection, in that situation he would have completed gas work by virtue of working on gas fittings - I am not sure GSIUR makes the distinction between filled with gas or not.

OK - well, as I said - I see plumbers putting in gas pipework - regularly in fact - and then the gas fitter popping in to do the relevant checks/tests/commissioning/certification. Now we either have a whole industry working on the knock or we have different opinions on what GSIUR says - which may differ from what gas safe recommend

Will he use ptfe on the connection to the boiler would I be able to tell once connected....

No idea Martyn - one for Dave I guess. It'll depend on the practical male and female thread in question, the coarsness of that thread etc.

PTFE tape isn't the only acceptable method of course, joint paste etc may be acceptable - you might want to see so called "gas tape" present - there are many possibilities i guess

If I was to take on board your argument then what you seem to be saying is anyone in any trade who can solder pipes should crack on with a bit of plumbing or gas work.

You know what is involved, I suspect the devil has found his advocate

LoL - OK Martyn - lets not hide behind particular skill sets here - I'm sure we could both find increasingly unlikely reasons as to why only a very small select group of people should do any particular job



regards

OMS



I hope he doesn't use standard grade PTFE ...

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 January 2013 05:27 PM
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daveparry1

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No, i'd use the proper gas ptfe on the yellow reel Martyn but would only use tape on a thread, if it's an olive type connection then jointing paste.
Thanks for all the time spent here on this one chaps, it's been much more interesting and absorbing than all that "is it double insulated or not" stuff we had a few days ago!

Dave.
 20 January 2013 05:29 PM
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Martynduerden

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You shouldn't need compound on olives, but you could used it on threads....

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 January 2013 05:37 PM
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daveparry1

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That's true Martyn, if the olive and seating are perfect no compound should be needed but that's not always the case, a little smear of paste on the olive allows for scratches etc. on the olive, my main experience of that is radiator valves etc. but I assume same could be true for gas?

Dave.
 20 January 2013 05:51 PM
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OMS

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I hope he doesn't use standard grade PTFE ...


Now there's a whole new debate - other than thickness and colour - is there a difference ?

installation practice on the right thread type and the capability for thinner gauge to "shred" and shed into gas trains is reasonably well known, hence the requirement for thicker guage - the actual material in question though is the same - BS EN 751-3:1997 - two grades for fine and coarse threads respectively?

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 20 January 2013 05:52 PM
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sparkingchip

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"You shouldn't need compound on olives, but you could used it on threads.... "

Been there done that, three times I asked a plumber to sort a leak out before it became inaccessible, three times he tightened it and it still leaked, so I dropped it apart and put some of my compound on it. The next day he said "See, I told you it didn't need any compound on it", sometimes ignorance is bliss where plumbers are concerned, so I let him think it he had sorted it himself.

And as for the leaky boiler this week!

A bit of jointing compound really is a good idea on a olive, but bear in mind there are brass olives and copper olives about. The brass are generally fine, but the copper ones are not good particularly on soft annealed copper pipe such as tap tails you can often spin the olives on the pipe with your fingers after compression. So i carry a bag of nice yellow olives (brass) and swap them for the darker coloured copper ones if they have been supplied with a fitting to go onto soft copper pipe.

But I'm just an anorak!

Andy
 20 January 2013 06:07 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: OMS

I hope he doesn't use standard grade PTFE ...


Now there's a whole new debate - other than thickness and colour - is there a difference ?

installation practice on the right thread type and the capability for thinner gauge to "shred" and shed into gas trains is reasonably well known, hence the requirement for thicker guage - the actual material in question though is the same - BS EN 751-3:1997 - two grades for fine and coarse threads respectively?

Regards

OMS


Sorry I've just glued my fingers together and closed my eyes

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 January 2013 06:12 PM
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sparkingchip

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That's what happens when you let a plumber loose with Cyanoacrylate or Superglue as it is more commonly known.

Andy
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Why us sparkies are fools

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