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Topic Title: Why us sparkies are fools
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Created On: 19 January 2013 12:33 PM
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 19 January 2013 12:33 PM
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OldSparky

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Just working for a customer who just had a boiler change done, standard gas system boiler wall mounted..


The plumber charged her £1600.00 it took 4 hours

is it not about time we all got our act together and started to charge a decent rate for what we do.
 19 January 2013 01:39 PM
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slittle

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Yep, Trouble is there will always be someone who will undercut everyone else.

The plumbing world seem to have "agreed prices" because no matter which plumber you talk to, they seem to all want the same money for a boiler change.


Stu
 19 January 2013 02:15 PM
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rogersmith7671

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The sixteen hundred sounds "par for the course", but it's the four hour install that cant be right.
It the job is to be done right; then a system flush will take most of a day. trying to do that and
simultaneously swap the boiler would be fun to watch.
If this sort job is to be done properly it will take more than four hours.
Struggling a boiler on the wall usually over a kitchen counter in a tight corner somewhere, isn't
as much fun as a nice clean DB change. not least any Gasafe legal problems.
Regards.
 19 January 2013 02:27 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: OldSparky

Just working for a customer who just had a boiler change done, standard gas system boiler wall mounted..

The plumber charged her £1600.00 it took 4 hours

is it not about time we all got our act together and started to charge a decent rate for what we do.


That's very cheap and very quick.

I'm swapping a combi next week with the required ancillary works ill be there 2 / 3 days.

All the gear to install to BS / MI's will cost me in excess of 1600.00!

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 19 January 2013 08:46 PM
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ectophile

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4 hours? That would have to be a straight swap with the same type of boiler, and no attempt to flush the system. When I've had boilers replaced, it's always been quoted as a 2 day job.

Make safe and remove the old boiler.
Flush the central heating system to remove as much rust as possible.
Adjust the pipework to match the new boiler.
Install the new boiler.
Commission and test the boiler.

That's an awful lot to do in 4 hours.

-------------------------
S P Barker BSc PhD MIET
 19 January 2013 08:54 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: ectophile

4 hours? That would have to be a straight swap with the same type of boiler, and no attempt to flush the system. When I've had boilers replaced, it's always been quoted as a 2 day job.

Make safe and remove the old boiler.

Flush the central heating system to remove as much rust as possible.

Adjust the pipework to match the new boiler.

Install the new boiler.

Commission and test the boiler.

That's an awful lot to do in 4 hours.


Not forgetting fitting thermostatic rad valves, thermostat, programmer etc etc..

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



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 20 January 2013 04:54 AM
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MrP

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I am not the brightest spark but your looking at this the wrong way
The payment of x is not for screwing a boiler to the wall and connecting the bits up its his know how
Running a bit t&e under the floor to connect a spur for the nice lady down the road might seem like not a great deal of work what you charge for is your know how
You sell your knowledge and know how. There is no set price

MrP A tadg cool this morning
 20 January 2013 09:38 AM
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tomgunn

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The thing is - theres nothing stopping you from installing boilers as i do them when asked - I then get a gassafe enginqueer chap to connect the pre-run gas and fix the flue... so theres a thingy - do em yourselves!

And, as I have said before - if the first chap, or chappess, wont do it - then as my foreman, Tommy Church, at the begining of my sparking days told me - if you dont do it - then someone else will!

Tom

-------------------------
Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

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I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).
 20 January 2013 02:46 PM
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daveparry1

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Hi Tom,
I have one of these to do, some friends have bought a 1980's 4 bedroomed detached house near to me, I do have quite a bit of electrical work to do there so as i'm going to have floors up etc they've asked me to change some rads, re-position some others and replace the conventional boiler with a combi so i'll have quite a bit of pipework re-arranging to do, they want to get rid of the airing cupboard and cylinder. In their previous house I done all this about seven years ago which did include installing all of the heating system, at that time they knew a Corgi chap who came in and done the final gas connection for them, he did have a little joke with me saying you've done all that other bl**dy pipework, why didn't you connect it yourself!
I do know several gas-safe blokes but have never approached them on something like this, do they have the same situation as us, ie not being (technically) allowed to sign-off other peoples work?
One last thing, do you have a preferred make of boiler? I fitted a Baxi 105 instant in their previous house which they were very pleased with, never had any problems with it, I think i'll need something a bit larger this time, would you think something around 35-38 kW would be suitable? 12 radiators, 4 bedrooms, double lounge, kitchen, hall and 2 showers, (although i've told them not to expect to be able to use them both at the same time)
Any advice much appreciated,

Dave.
 20 January 2013 02:59 PM
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OMS

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I do know several gas-safe blokes but have never approached them on something like this, do they have the same situation as us, ie not being (technically) allowed to sign-off other peoples work?


Gas fitters are much more pragmatic - they are signing as indviduals, they care not a jot about our foolish clubs and thier rules, they will give you a cost for the work, provide the paperwork and that's it - job done, money trousered, 4 hours work a day and off home for tea and stickies by 4.00pm.

I quite like Worcester boilers for domestic - although at 40kW a good light commercial like Hamworthy or Hoval might be worth looking at

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 20 January 2013 03:02 PM
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Martynduerden

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It's not a technicality Dave, you are simply not permitted to work on or with gas fittings unless your registered, (ignoring DIY).

No gs registered fitter in his right mind would sign off someone else's work, it may not leak but that's only half the story.

We do ourselves no favours in either industry by "signing off" work by the unregistered/untrained/incompetant etc.

I'm not suggesting that you are not capable but would you be happy to issue an EIC to a plumber who rewired his own house?

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 January 2013 03:03 PM
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spinlondon

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I find the Vaillant range to be pretty good.
 20 January 2013 03:18 PM
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rocknroll

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No gs registered fitter in his right mind would sign off someone else's work, it may not leak but that's only half the story.

We do ourselves no favours in either industry by "signing off" work by the unregistered/untrained/incompetant etc.


A while back I spent some time chasing a gas registered person who spent most of his time sipping cocktails on a balcony in Estepona, the eleven plumbers/boiler fitters he employed were not gas competent but he used to leave a pad of signed certificates in the office for all to use.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 20 January 2013 03:18 PM
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daveparry1

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would you be happy to issue an EIC to a plumber who rewired his own house?
-----------------------
Well Martyn provided I could see EVERYTHING he'd done I wouldn't really have a problem with that, although it is more of a problem with electrics as so much ends up out of sight. A boiler is a bit different i'd say, a few feet of fully visible gas pipe of the correct size
and the flue outlet going through the wall, very easy to see the all of the potentially dangerius stuff!
Dave.
 20 January 2013 03:25 PM
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Martynduerden

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What about the other appliances, installing a new gas appliance means you modify all the others in terms of supply of available gas at full rate.

Gas is very similar to electrical work in terms of complexity, where as plumbing is considerably easier.

Try not to dismiss the complexity of gas and its safe installation, it's common to over hear people chatting rubbish about electrical work and you stand there thinking "that's nonsense" gas is much the same.....

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 January 2013 03:29 PM
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Martynduerden

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Boiler choice is more to do with personal opinion than anything else,

I only fit Viessmann and Worcester, I work on mountains of brands they ALL have faults some more than others, Viessmann and Worcester have the fewest issues for me, when they do fail the parts are reasonably priced and readably available.

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 January 2013 03:34 PM
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OMS

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No gs registered fitter in his right mind would sign off someone else's work, it may not leak but that's only half the story.


I beg to differ Martyn - I see it every day in the commercial world and I know plenty of gas fitters who do it regularly in the domestic arena.

Pipeline integrity test, pressure drop measurement and an inspection of the burner train assembly, and setting where appropriate coupled with an inspection of the flue and ventilation is about it for what Dave needs. The hydraulic side of the boiler for DHW and LTHW isn't considered. If the gas fiter has any doubts then there is no paperwork provided and remedials need to be undertaken.

We do ourselves no favours in either industry by "signing off" work by the unregistered/untrained/incompetant etc.


Unregistered is one thing - untrained and/or incompetant is quite another - most gas techs can spot the difference quite easily. It's no different really to getting a CEng to sign off the work of the design team in some sectors.

I'm not suggesting that you are not capable but would you be happy to issue an EIC to a plumber who rewired his own house?


Depends on what I found at the first fix and on completion inspection really Martyn - and if said plumber was capable of signing off my gas install of course -

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 20 January 2013 03:38 PM
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OMS

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Gas is very similar to electrical work in terms of complexity, where as plumbing is considerably easier.


I've not used the phrase for a while, but come on Martyn - it's not rocket science - for any of the above.

It's simple rule based (and even more so for gas) that is well within the capability of most trade skills.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 20 January 2013 03:48 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: OMS

No gs registered fitter in his right mind would sign off someone else's work, it may not leak but that's only half the story.


I beg to differ Martyn - I see it every day in the commercial world and I know plenty of gas fitters who do it regularly in the domestic arena.

Pipeline integrity test, pressure drop measurement and an inspection of the burner train assembly, and setting where appropriate coupled with an inspection of the flue and ventilation is about it for what Dave needs. The hydraulic side of the boiler for DHW and LTHW isn't considered. If the gas fiter has any doubts then there is no paperwork provided and remedials need to be undertaken.


That's not necessarily true the hydraulic side is occasionally behind a case seal boiler in which case it is considered a gas seal.

Signing off NEW work done by a person not a member of the class of persons Is against the law where money or other gain is involved.

We do ourselves no favours in either industry by "signing off" work by the unregistered/untrained/incompetant etc.


Unregistered is one thing - untrained and/or incompetant is quite another - most gas techs can spot the difference quite easily. It's no different really to getting a CEng to sign off the work of the design team in some sectors.


Aggreed but we are very quick to condemn the unregistered electrician - cant have it both ways

I'm not suggesting that you are not capable but would you be happy to issue an EIC to a plumber who rewired his own house?


Depends on what I found at the first fix and on completion inspection really Martyn - and if said plumber was capable of signing off my gas install of course -

Regards

OMS


And tree in lies the rub

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 20 January 2013 03:52 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: OMS

Gas is very similar to electrical work in terms of complexity, where as plumbing is considerably easier.


I've not used the phrase for a while, but come on Martyn - it's not rocket science - for any of the above.

It's simple rule based (and even more so for gas) that is well within the capability of most trade skills.

Regards

OMS


I never said it was rocket science, I said it was similar to electrical work, so I guess it comes down to how you view electrical work in terms of complexity when compared to other trades.

You could argue that everything is rule based if paid, or not, if paid

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
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