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Topic Title: £1,400 rewire
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Created On: 16 January 2013 09:10 PM
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 24 October 2015 09:36 AM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 9974
Joined: 18 January 2003

Back when the socket ring circuit was designed homes did not have central heating, normally a open fire place in the main living room and possibly a small solid fuel boiler in the kitchen with one of them usually heating the hot water.

The socket ring was designed to allow the use of two 3 kilowatt electric heaters and a few table lamps and a radio.

Sixty years later the homes have central heating and appliances such as washing machines.

Yet we do not see these old circuits failing due to overload.

Yes, the central heating could fail and lots of electric heaters could be plugged in. I told some people not to do exactly that a few years ago and it was the DNO 40 amp main fuse that went first.

We are not going to design electrical circuits in houses in anticipation of the possibility of occasional use of electric space heating in every room without over specifying a system that is required to work alongside a alternative space heating system.

And up certainly aren't going to get additional circuits giving spare capacity with a £1400 rewire of a two bed house.

Andy
 24 October 2015 09:52 AM
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sparkingchip

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Michael.

I do see a bit of a theme in your posts concerning the use of permanently installed extension leads

If they are creating a hazard they do justify a comment on the EICR, we often see the extension lead contained in a hose pipe feeding a garden shed and leads under carpets in doorways that are creating hazards that it perfectly justifiable to comment about.

Andy
 25 October 2015 11:46 AM
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aligarjon

Posts: 3854
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Originally posted by: antric2

I blame Sarah Beeney and Melissa Messenger!!!!



8pm they can enter ahouse that needs renovating....815pm adverts.....820pm return to program and house half rewired,plumbed and plastered.swept and decorators arrive.



I used to use this line as a joke but of recent times I do think that some customers think 60 minute make over is actually done in 60 minutes....!!

Regards

Antric


I know a decorators who used to work on 60 minute makeover. He said that they hardly ever over ran on time. He said they used to fit the tv's on the wall with no cables or sockets up there for them to actually work.

-------------------------
Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 25 October 2015 01:25 PM
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mapj1

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I once got involved with a socket like that - expecting a poor connection or damaged cable but actually with nothing at all behind it. On further query 'I don't think it ever worked actually' . I bet it didnt!

-------------------------
regards Mike
 25 October 2015 01:42 PM
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sparkingchip

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I smashed the front of a faulty double socket because I couldn't get the screws out to fault find it.

Andy
 25 October 2015 02:09 PM
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mapj1

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Ah - oops! those safes would be more convincing if the sockets actually worked..

-------------------------
regards Mike
 02 November 2015 12:18 AM
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michaelward

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Michael.

I do see a bit of a theme in your posts concerning the use of permanently installed extension leads

If they are creating a hazard they do justify a comment on the EICR, we often see the extension lead contained in a hose pipe feeding a garden shed and leads under carpets in doorways that are creating hazards that it perfectly justifiable to comment about.



Andy


Extensions, that plug into a socket, or individually fused should never be included in a report.

You could make a comment or give advice, just as it does on that web page, but the regulations are intended to report on electrical fixtures that are permanent in nature, not something than can change by just unplugging it from a wall.

If someone was advised that an extension was unsafe and they unplugged it straight away, then the report that was made would be immediately invalid and the client would have every right not to pay the electrician for a false report..
 02 November 2015 10:35 AM
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AJJewsbury

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but the regulations are intended to report on electrical fixtures that are permanent in nature

I'm not sure that's the case any more. There's a specific inclusion of 'wiring systems and cables not specifically covered by the standards for appliances' (110.1.2 (iii)) as one example.
- Andy.
 02 November 2015 01:15 PM
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Avalon

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Hi All,
New kid on the block here, new to the forum anyway...
I initially came to the forum as i recently decided to go sole trader so many thanks to all who post advice and take time to help others.

It was very interesting reading this thread and i too am the type to make sure the customer understands the nuts and bolts of the job to be done (some don't want to know) and is satisfied with the end product.

The reason why i am posting is i report extension leads in an EICR when they are incorrectly used, one of the worst examples was when checking a golf caddy charging room, i spotted a plug with a PAT Pass sticker on it, emanating from the plug was a twin and CPC and it disappeared thru a wall, curiosity instantly got the better of me and i went looking to see where it went, eventually i found the cable appear in the bar/golf clubs gents WC and was clipped along the top of a long stainless steel urinal...
To make matters worse there was no signs of bonding and the copper water feed pipe went to a ceramic cistern! The cable then ran down the wall and thru into the WC closet to feed directly into a low level tubular heater, it was obviously a diy job done by a club member but it does beg the question how it had a PAT Pass sticker on! And not only that but when i pointed out the danger and wanted it disconnected immediately i was told the last test didn't show it as a problem AND also had a Pass sticker too, i quickly pointed out the electrical system is checked on a 5 year 20% rolling plan.
Needless to say it was written down as a 1 as they wouldn't unplug it or allow me to remove it. My view is it's for me to highlight potential dangers from any part of the electrical system without exception regardless of condition, the plug/twin&cpc was in satisfactory condition, the tubular heater showed signs of corrosion (probably uric acid) but still serviceable, no RCD present and a 13 amp fuse in the plug on 1mm. I could have written so much more than a simple 1 for this one... i have a feeling the club secretary(Probably the DIY Spark) was the person who installed it.

It's been a very interesting thread to read as i see lots of different views, i am on the retirement run now and have been working with young lads who can first fix a new build in one day and second fix another day, ok there are 2 of them... all i do now is second fix and customer support.
£1400 for a rewire? I don't think so... i always add in the buggeration factor when pricing, i don't work as fast as the young folk but i use the same equation to price the job and if it takes me another couple of days to do it then it doesn't bother me as i want a happy satisfied customer that may come back to use me time after time.
The main thing that comes from reading the threads is that there is a lot of dedication to the electrical trade. My mentor once said if you hire a bad decorator you get paint runs... if you hire a bad plumber you get your feet wet... but if you hire a bad electrician you end up with a corpse...
My mentor also used to say ( when he said it... at the time it was true!) there are only 3 people it's illegal to pretend to be, One is a Policeman, Two is a Doctor and Three is an Electrician.

Best Regards

A
 02 November 2015 03:55 PM
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sparkingchip

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"If someone was advised that an extension was unsafe and they unplugged it straight away, then the report that was made would be immediately invalid and the client would have every right not to pay the electrician for a false report.."

If you take your car for a MOT and it has a advisory notice attached and you then deal with those items the MOT is still valid.

The same with a EICR, you cannot ignore a obviously dangerous appliance, so there are two routes to take either include it in the EICR or issue a dangerous situation notice and append it to the EICR with a note on the EICR to say it is appended.

Andy
 02 November 2015 08:40 PM
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michaelward

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I see your point with the MOT analogy, but once an item is fixed, the failure notice is no longer valid, the difference being that an MOT costs far less than an EICR and a second test is usually free. A lot of the time a garage will not issue a fail if the work is carried out immediately.
Now compare that with an EICR which can cost up to 6 times more, with a report being entered as unsafe, then have a second extortionate charge for unplugging something.

These rules are not hard and fast and electricians should not use them as a proverbial cricket bat around the ear to pressure customers.

All you have to do is look at the rules to see they apply in chosen cases. A spur in the case of Andy's example above could be considered to be dangerous on a number of factors, primarily though it was feeding a heater in a dangerous position, It was on a plug with a fuse, doubtless it was 3 wire and the heater was earthed. Pretty stupid place to have it and he did right advising the club it was bad practice, but unless it is made law that every builing in the UK has to be checked and owners must comply with that law, then writing something into an EICR that is not permanent is legally pretty dodgy.

What are the maximum number of spurs on any ring and what is the maximum length of the spur ? if you think about it for a short period, you cannot really specify how many spurs you can have, without defining the length, given that every ceiling pendant light, is a spur.

Furthermore can you actually define an extension lead as a spur ?

If this is a hard and fast rule, then why can you buy 4 socket 50metre extension leads, when the maximum length of any ring on a box fuse is 60metre and an MCB is 50 metre.

I will give you another analogy, you speed down a 30mph road and a camera clocks you at 31. Should you not automatically get 3 points for speeding, a hefty fine and as such be prosecuted for driving without due card and attention. You can bet that many people are grateful the police are not as pedantic as electricians appear to want to be, when looking applying rules.

Like with all rules, electricians need to be flexible.
 02 November 2015 09:07 PM
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perspicacious

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when the maximum length of any ring on a box fuse is 60metre and an MCB is 50 metre.

Is this one of your Rules?

Regards

BOD
 02 November 2015 09:40 PM
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alancapon

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Originally posted by: michaelward
. . . why can you buy 4 socket 50metre extension leads . . .

That is an interesting question. You can buy it because it will be CE marked. However, it will (should) fail a PAT as the cable resistance will be too large to operate a 13A fuse. You may even have difficulty justifying a 3A fuse!

Regards,

Alan.
 02 November 2015 10:07 PM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: alancapon

Originally posted by: michaelward

. . . why can you buy 4 socket 50metre extension leads . . .


That is an interesting question. You can buy it because it will be CE marked. However, it will (should) fail a PAT as the cable resistance will be too large to operate a 13A fuse. You may even have difficulty justifying a 3A fuse!



Regards,



Alan.


All such extension leads should have a RCD hard wired up front due to the high probability of the fuse not operating.

Going for a extreme example of the use of plugs and sockets, consider a residential caravan park with several hundred pitches, the caravans are not exempt from the wiring regulation if they are connected to the supply with a plug and socket.

Andy
 02 November 2015 10:16 PM
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mapj1

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The point is that BS7671 assumes certain disconnection times and rather idealised short circuiut faults. These requiremetns are not required to be met as part of the plug and socket spec. Also you may plug that lead into the furthest socket on the ring and get a double dose of voltage drop, or plug one lead into another.

BS EN61242 I think defines some maximum recommended impedances /

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 02 November 2015 at 10:26 PM by mapj1
 02 November 2015 10:59 PM
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sparkingchip

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I'm waiting for Bod to start commenting on how long I've had a extension lead powering up my Wifi with it running across the hall.

Do as I say, not as I do



Andy
 03 November 2015 12:35 AM
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peteTLM

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Originally posted by: michaelward

I see your point with the MOT analogy, but once an item is fixed, the failure notice is no longer valid,
it would still need the original MOT issuing garage to check the work has been done to reverse it
the difference being that an MOT costs far less than an EICR and a second test is usually free.
[I]It is a prescribed fee set by government and a less than market rate in order to encourage people to have it done
A lot of the time a garage will not issue a fail if the work is carried out immediately. That would be mostly illegal then



These rules are not hard and fast and electricians should not use them as a proverbial cricket bat around the ear to pressure customers.
I think you're confusing us with plumbers. Houses are pretty simple in the run of things, its either compliant or its not.



something into an EICR that is not permanent is legally pretty dodgy.
Actually part P building regs were amended in 2006 to include otherwise temporary items used as a fixed equipment once the BandQ brigade started doing extension lead installations to sheds and greenhouses in order to get round quality and notification requirements



What are the maximum number of spurs on any ring and what is the maximum length of the spur ? if you think about it for a short period, you cannot really specify how many spurs you can have, without defining the length, given that every ceiling pendant light, is a spur.

I take it you have never seen a copy of BS7671 then?




If this is a hard and fast rule, then why can you buy 4 socket 50metre extension leads, when the maximum length of any ring on a box fuse is 60metre and an MCB is 50 metre.
want to revise that?





Like with all rules, electricians need to be flexible.

An EICR is a statement of the installations compliance with the current requirements, namely BS7671, and other relevant documents. Is it worth my liability insurance and possibly my house to overlook something just because it would be to someones financial benefit to look the other way?



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Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 03 November 2015 09:12 AM
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mapj1

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At the very least, the use of an extension lead as semi-permanent means that the original socket is not really in the ideal place, or there are not enough of them, and that in turn implies that the current use of the installation is different to that originally planned (who knows what was originally planned in some cases)
Now that may be fine, but it may be an early warning of other hazards. Remember far more folk are hurt in trips and falls, numbers in the thousands per year in the UK, than are ever electrocuted, which is single figures to about 20 depending on the year and if you include various nasty industrial accidents or just domestic, and you can play with appliances versus fixed wiring to reduce that number a bit. I grant you a higher number get a shock, and that may not be recorded, than are electrocuted outright, but then a lot of folk sprain an ankle and don't report it either.
It may be OK, and just an observation rather than a formal BS7671 line item, but like 'beware of the missing floorboards' or damage to damp course or fire barriers it ought to be raised.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 03 November 2015 03:00 PM
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Avalon

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I like the simplistic view of using an MOT as a way to describe the EICR, however i take it to the view of an installation "when installed was correct at the time of design, install and testing/cert, i have often given an aged installation a "satisfactory" with an addendum of items to bring it to current standards... If it was right "back in the day" who am i to say it needs upgrading to current standards?
I realise lots will spout rules and regs to say other; BUT and it's a big But insomuch as If you take a classic or even a vintage car for an MOT it will pass because they use a realistic expectation of the day it was manufactured for braking distances etc. Not once has a garage say "With sharp intake of Breath" Oh You need those rear brake drums/shoes replaced with disks/pads!
I tend to take the view of if it is serviceable and safe it's good to be used and spend more time looking for parts of the system that are potential hazards.
I have been asked to quote for remedial for an EICR done by others and often don't agree with their recommendations, i would imagine lots of you have had the same problem?
Why any inspection would report all conductors need to identified to BS7671 is beyond belief when one simple sticker on the DB would suffice.

I was pleased to read in this thread regarding twin cables only for lighting and replacing the metal fittings with DI ceiling roses/RCD as an option! As a genuine trader that should always be the first option to the client, however i have to say we all need to sing from the same sheet... on the one hand you have A.N.Other spark saying you need a complete rewire and i rock up saying you can save 2 grand if you agree to choose different lights!
The customer is always King for their choice and most will look at their bank balance and choose what's right for them!

Getting back to EICR i know for sure on the day when its checked and signed it's a massive statement of the condition; the next day when it's used is just like an MOT, Once you leave the garage its only a snap shot of how it was checked "at that Moment in Time". Lots of legal eagles will try to prove there was neglect during testing which is why we do what we do! Testing...

Best Regards

A
 03 November 2015 03:52 PM
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geoffsd

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Originally posted by: Avalon
we all need to sing from the same sheet...


I spot a flaw.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » £1,400 rewire

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