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Topic Title: which do you : scheme or building control for part p work
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Created On: 30 December 2012 09:38 PM
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 02 January 2013 04:23 PM
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tomgunn

Posts: 3213
Joined: 25 May 2005

Originally posted by: normcall

I don't expect I'm right, but providing the fan is protected by a RCD and is IP** (fill in as I've only fitted one - 54 I think, I know it was a wall Vent-Axia and very expensive!) it is allowed.

My customers bathroom was actually below ground level, there was already a fan set into hand made wall tiles, so I didn't have a lot of choice.

This, of course, is second only to a well known double glazing firm who built a conservatory in a conservation area, over the only window in the bathroom without planning or building regulation approval (why do we bother??) Customer was surprised when I explained why her bathroom was pouring water from the walls onto the floor. I did offer to stay and mob up whilst the room was in use, but she declined my free offer. I sorted a low voltage one for that problem as again, the only access to outside was over the bath.


Aha! The first thing I did Norm when I found where the fan was situated was to pop under the stairs and see what they had in a way of a CCU. And what did I find? A 6 way Wylex 3036... no RCD in sight!

regards...

Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

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 02 January 2013 04:24 PM
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Paradigm

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Originally posted by: tomgunn




Tom anddddd - relaxxxxxxxx... ahhhh - much better now!






Nick

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"be careful of what you write"
 02 January 2013 04:24 PM
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tomgunn

Posts: 3213
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Originally posted by: Paradigm

Originally posted by: tomgunn









Tom anddddd - relaxxxxxxxx... ahhhh - much better now!












Nick


Happy new year!

-------------------------
Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).
 02 January 2013 04:33 PM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: tomgunn

Originally posted by: Paradigm

Rocky

Try not to take things to heart, life is far too short

Anyway, back into lurk mode, this is far too "controversial" for me and I just can't keep up with the way you guys live on the edge.

Nick




Tom anddddd - relaxxxxxxxx... ahhhh - much better now!


If some of us did not live on the edge nothing would ever change and life would become very boring very quickly.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 02 January 2013 04:59 PM
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Paradigm

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Originally posted by: rocknroll

If some of us did not live on the edge nothing would ever change and life would become very boring very quickly.

regards


My Grandad used to live on the edge until his house fell into the sea


Nick

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"be careful of what you write"
 02 January 2013 05:36 PM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: Paradigm

Originally posted by: rocknroll

If some of us did not live on the edge nothing would ever change and life would become very boring very quickly.

regards


My Grandad used to live on the edge until his house fell into the sea

Nick


Well, thats right, the prospect of not knowing whether in the morning you are going to wake up on the beach surrounded by a family of crabs and starfish with the waves lapping at your feet is far more exciting than thinking, ah well, I have to wake up again in the morning, go to work, come home, have tea and go to bed and do it all over again. LOL

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 02 January 2013 06:10 PM
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Paradigm

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Well that's the romantic fantasy version I suppose and we can all have dreams but reality is more like you end up dead, buried under a few ton of debris and your loved ones are left to clean up the mess.

I like knowing where I am going to wake up thanks. ;-)

Nick

-------------------------
"be careful of what you write"
 03 January 2013 05:10 PM
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jcm256

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Weakened but still there
My hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) referred to the importance of public understanding. The Minister is on a learning curve, as was the Committee, and when we asked our first questions it was with quite a lot of ignorance. We asked about the responsibility on householders, and whether, if they employed a properly qualified electrician, it was the electrician's job to ensure that everything was done correctly. The answer was no; it was the householder's responsibility. It is not necessary to ask 100 people in the street to know that 99 of them probably do not know that. Of 100 members of Parliament, 99 probably would not know that. Some members of the Committee said that they had had a kitchen fitted, but were not sure whether the person who came along to fit the sockets was a member of a competent person scheme, although they were probably a qualified electrician.
When members of the public go to a kitchen supplier saying that they want a couple of sockets here and there, and new light under the cupboards, they do not ask whether the person who will do the electrical work as part of fitting a new kitchen is a member of a competent person scheme, whether the work complies with building regulations, or whether it is necessary to notify the council about the work. They are probably more interested in whether the new kitchen looks nice, what the price is and whether they are getting good value for money, which is understandable. The Committee made it clear that the rules should be specific about work in these areas, that there must be compliance with the regulations as they stand, and that work should be done by a member of a competent person scheme or conform to building regulations if substantial work is done anywhere in the house.
There must be more public awareness. The Government accepted that it is a matter for them, local councils, and the industry. The Committee also recommended, and the Government accepted, that something must be done about toughening up the competent person scheme, the concern about conflict of interest, and ensuring that organisations receive levies from the companies and individuals who are part of the scheme. There could be a conflict. The Government have accepted that, and that they must toughen up the requirements and introduce more vetting organisations. There is agreement about the need to toughen up the rules. The whole industry, including the Electrical Safety Council, which expressed concern about watering down the regulations, should be involved. We must raise awareness.
To speed things up, and perhaps reduce costs when small amounts of electrical work were involved and the electrician doing the work was not a member of a competent person scheme, we suggested that a registered scheme member could come and sign off the work. We thought that that would be a safe change that the Government might be prepared to consider.

Below is some other things the Government said on the debate on part P:

The Government's proposal, as part of their deregulatory agenda, that part P might be revoked was a concern to all of us who care deeply about the subject. I welcome the fact that the Government's response to the report sets out that they no longer propose to revoke part P. In my view, doing so would have been a foolish, retrograde step. However, the language in the Government's response still gives cause for concern that the impact of part P could be significantly weakened.

Comment from poster (So part P stays but weakened)

They said:
On part P, the word on the street, and from people I trust in the industry, is that the Health and Safety Executive is trimming the part down and rationalising it, rather than getting rid of it.

Comment from poster: (Wrong: Don't they know "The Government", that HSE had nothing to do with part P)
After 8 years it does not give confidence that, they know what they are doing. To be fair it was another member of the debating committee, who misled the new Minister in charge.

They said:
There is growing consensus that the answer probably lies in enabling DIY installers to have their work certified by a member of a competent person scheme, rather than having to obtain building control approval in all cases. The industry supports that proposal, the Select Committee supported it and LABC also appears to be supportive. It appears to be common sense, and it holds out the prospect of making real savings and reducing the burden of regulation without weakening safety.

Comment from poster Tom has a point : One 'sparks' i registered and that allows all his country fellows to do works and he'll pass it - most likely for a fee of course. To add to that remark would a 5 day registered installer with a scheme be able to produce an EICR.. Iit is an EICR with third party. This could be an EICR for completely new house or a three, four story building not just the part under part P i.e. the common area and bathrooms).

What if the installer was a fully qualified electrician/engineer who did not want to give money to join a needless scheme. got a job mounting a doorbell transformer, consisting of 6" of 1mm cable a five amp-isolating switch beside the consumer unit? Being a new circuit under part p, would he have to get a third party to examine the first fix, then later get the third party to issue a minor works certificate. Now the third party only does inspection and testing only and needs jobs to show his scheme assessor, the assessor looks at the job, but has to say something about earthing, labelling etc, Maybe the scheme, registered company QS also looked in on the job. Yes four men for the doorbell, could the new part P be considered a daft draft.
 03 January 2013 05:36 PM
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rocknroll

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It is highly unlikely that anything will change from where it is now, the 3 in 4 Diyers who do their own building work behind closed doors and those who object to notification will continue to do so as there are no laws against this, all we can do is deal with it on a retrospective basis, for example, when an incident happens or the time of the house sale.

As i pointed out for something as simple as domestic installation work Part P was grossly over regulated by the previous government and I suspect the impact will lessen with time, although Part P itself will still be part of the suite of standards for the build sector.

If you use the new draft sensibly and use a bit of common sense both you and the DIYers should in the majority of cases avoid the Part P trap without too much problem.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 03 January 2013 05:45 PM
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John Peckham

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Joined: 23 April 2005

For the upteenth time it is not a draft it is the real thing!

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
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