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Topic Title: Can't get a fix
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Created On: 29 December 2012 09:29 PM
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 29 December 2012 09:29 PM
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MrOther

Posts: 531
Joined: 08 June 2010

No need to worry, the title is indicative of new habit (thankfully.)

Just been chasing out some sockets. Taking away plaster new 35mm sockets only need to go a little back.

Brick is brittle and can't get a decent wall plug fixing.

So sent my sister boyfriend out to get some No More Nails or similar to past over the back so that I could then drill into that.

Instead he returns with expanding foam. He reckons he used it at work.

So we make our sleves some wood A frames and we past this foam on the back of the back box. Stick it in. Press the frame against it so that it doesn't push out.

First one stuck okay. Wouldn't want to put my 14st frame behind it but then a wall plug won't hold that.

So has anyone else done this before?

Can says it's an adhensive. Must say it didn't expand as much as usual so which I was concerned about: coming back and the back box is hanging out the wall.

Thanks.


Hope you had a good Chrimbo.
 29 December 2012 09:37 PM
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slittle

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It will fix boxes if you are careful and then plaster around them.

Had to do it a few times in crumbling farm houses.


Stu
 29 December 2012 10:11 PM
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MrOther

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Originally posted by: slittle

It will fix boxes if you are careful and then plaster around them.



Had to do it a few times in crumbling farm houses.





Stu


Ah great.

I'm no expert chaser, just figuring it out as I go along.

I've got pretty decent on this time round. Some better then others. They are holding, plasterer will hopefully secure them proper when he fills in.

Other wise I'll just have to nick some of his "dot" (and dab).
 29 December 2012 10:17 PM
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slittle

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Cut the hole as tight as you can. Put the box in and then foam through the fixing holes in the back of the box.

Let it dry and cut the foam back to leave none in the box. You'll find it sticks better that way. Also worth dampening the bricks a little before you jam the box in there.


Stu
 29 December 2012 10:17 PM
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leckie

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That dot and dab adhesive sticks like ........ If your foam doesn't hold, that's a good alternative. Or bonding plaster. Brush the chased out brickwork with unibond first to provide a seal. That will work I promise. Time served!

Edited: 30 December 2012 at 07:17 AM by leckie
 29 December 2012 10:30 PM
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Fm

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Dry wall adhesive, sets rock hard
Make sure thereis no dust around the chase , wet the chase and fire the adhesive everywhere, will stick the sides of thebox to the wall will allow you to drill it.

Available in b and q!
 30 December 2012 09:40 AM
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peteTLM

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Bonding plaster every time. Perfect alignment.

Dry wall adhesive works just as well if not more.

You can get expanding foam that doesnt expand especially for sticking applications such as sticking celotex to walls etc, not sure if i would use it. You wont find it in screwfix or a shed though.

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 30 December 2012 10:07 AM
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unshockable

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Bonding plaster every time for me too. No more twisted, wonky or overly deep boxes.

Always wet the brick; I have a spray bottle for this. Leave the hole shy of the surface minimum 5mm for finishing. Add a little, 20%, cement and will go off in the hour. Fill the hole and hammer the box in for best results.

Simon
 30 December 2012 10:29 AM
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daveparry1

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+1 for the bonding plaster, cut the hole as near as possible to size, whack the bonding in and press the backbox into it then finish off around the edge, as Simon said add a little cement if you want it to go off extra quickly. I also give a little tap on the spare knock-outs, just enough to give the plaster a bit more to grip on,!
Happy new year to all,

Dave.
 30 December 2012 10:58 AM
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Legh

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Yep.... the consensus appears to be
1to1 bonding and cement mixed with 1to5 unibond .

The bonding goes off within a few minutes and the cement follows within 24 hours.

Its excellent for rough stone walls and loose plaster where its more or less impossible to get a true fix to the wall without some adhesive.

Legh.

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 30 December 2012 11:00 AM
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leckie

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As I mentioned earlier, pva or unibond diluted is excellent instead of just water as it gives a seal. In fact if you are doing chasing and want to keep dust down prior to making good, brush in unibond and job done
 30 December 2012 09:34 PM
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MrOther

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Thanks all once again for your advice.
 31 December 2012 10:28 AM
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tomgunn

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If you really cannot get a good fix then the best way to resolve this would be to use some multi-finish plaster... the mistake some on here are making is quite obvious - they are using bonding and as far as I am concerned multi-finish is stronger and also what they are missing is the fact that if you do use bonding then the finish around the box will never be right as it wont be smooth - BUT - if you use multi-finish plaster you can actually finish off the srface in a nice smooooth finish - so there!! Make sure that the brickwork behind is well soaked, don't bother with PVA etc... as PVA can be more bad than good and NEVER let any PVA applied to brickwork dry before plastering!!! Set plaster into wall and push the box in - when dried you can drill through for two good fixings - Job? DONE!

Tom

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 31 December 2012 11:20 AM
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Zs

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I'm glad you posted Tom; I have been watching this thread thinking that I need to change my ways and start carrying a big sack of real bonding around. Multi finish, you see, comes in smaller bags.

Also, cutting a tight hole for the box...all well and good if you're lining up with the mortar for your cut,the bricks are not crumbling and the back brick doesn't fall out completely. But when that fails I go straight to plan B... cut the box too big, mix multi finish, wet the bricks with whatever I can find to do that, such as splashing them from a site tea cup, and then put a large dollop of multi finish on the end of a trowel and fling it hard into the hole. Push the box in until the goo oozes out of the sides, revisit with plugs and screws without taking the box out after it is dry.

Works for me and in fact I prefer fixing wet rather than just plugs and screws.

Grommets before mounting.

They'll make a builder out of me yet. Cheers Tom.

Zs

Temporary avatar relevant to SKs post about unsafe light fittings.
 31 December 2012 12:22 PM
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daveparry1

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I will give the multi finish a try, it does sound quite good, does it go off as quickly as bonding? To be honest I rarely bother to drill and screw the box in once it's bedded into the bonding, the bonding keys into the rough edges of the brick or block, never had anyone call me to say their socket has come out of the wall! The smaller bags do sound more convenient,

Dave.
 01 January 2013 01:10 PM
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Fm

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I suppose it depends if you are fixing you boxes to first fix for someone else to make good or patching your own raggles.

I let plasterers plaster, souse dry wall adhesive to fix the box, i ensure its way back from the flush to let them skim it.
 01 January 2013 05:46 PM
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Legh

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I don't think I've ever found the need to use adhesives when fixing backing boxes to brick or block but C15 - C19 stone rubble walls is more or less impossible to get any fix without a good dollop muck.

You first carve out and start chopping, then bits of stone, mortar and plaster start misbehaving and if you keep banging and drilling the hole until the surrounding area becomes unmanageable and then requires major surgery.

So as stated above wet down and slap in the muck and lean a backing box into it for a few minutes.
Within 20 minutes or so you can first fix the cables into place.
I've never used multifinish plaster as part of the compound so I can't comment, but I'm sure once the cement goes off it will hold just as well.

Another tip, when you run out of cutting compound then you could use NHS liquid soap. It cuts lousy threads but at least you'll come out smelling of roses !

Legh

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Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 02 January 2013 10:33 AM
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tomgunn

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Hello Zs - really sorry I missed meeting you and some of the others on the NYE thing - as I was looking forward to meeting you all!

The thing about multi-finish is ~ buy a normal bag, ( I think that Wicks has to be the cheapest - even though they are owned by Travis Perkins @ about a fiver a bag - also look out now for multi-finish that contains PVA eliminating the use of painting PVA on before you plaster a smoooooth surface - not seen them yet but would be handy to do so! ), and you'll be amazed at how quickly you'll get through the bag as its always a handy item to have around! Its much better than bonding as you'll get a smooooth finish with multi-finish plaster... always take your time when finishing off around the fixed box - in all probability you'll have a couple to do so take your time and when you have fixed the other boxes then return to the first one and smoooot nicely and you'll feel really good at the finished article and you know what - you'll one day think - hang on! If I can finish off that small area I can take on a larger area and the trick to doing say a larger hole is to make sure that, ( if you use bonding / mortar - OPC, Ordinary Portland Cement - if ya didnt know ), is to fill the large area but always leave the bonding back somewhat - say half an inch, leave a 'groove around the edge of the hole, ( this allows the plaster an area to work to ), and then finish off with some multi-finish and always wet around the hole so that you can keep the finish plaster flush. Another trick is that if you feel you want to make the multi-finish plaster stronger, I do occasionally, is to add some OPC! Its quite simple so have fun - this time next year you'll all be plasterers! Hurrah!

Another trick, if you like, with multi-finish, and I have said this before, is to save some old plaster - maybe even leave it on the floor of your garage - and what this does is to make it go off! So, if you need some quick drying multi-finish plaster that sets quicky then this is the way to go as it WILL go off very fast indeed so watch it - haha! It will go off in minutes and you wont get a second chance either! You could always use multi-finish to fill in BIG holes but be careful as its not really for that so the main thing to look out for is that if you do do this, also on very porous walls / areas, is once the multi-finish has set it could start to crack and all you need to do is to get a brush and paint the wall / area with water and it'll work out brill!

The reason why I drill a couple of holes in the back, once its dried, is just for peace of mind and to be honest I have had times when I just didnt have the time and also I knew it would be fine - but like everything I do I like to both cover myself and do a competent job too!

As for 'cutting compound' I have always favoured lard - daft but true - works brill on tube - as for smelling nice? Well it just doesnt - good for eggs though and it has less calories than butter!

Also, yes you can use nice wet mortar to secure your boxes and as long as they are going to be finished off by a plasterer then no problem! BUT, if you're on your own and want to leave a nice smoooth finish for the client then multi-finish has to be the way to go!

Good luck!
All the best for the new year!!!!

regards...

Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).
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