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Topic Title: Draft for new Part P
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Created On: 23 December 2012 12:12 PM
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 23 December 2012 12:12 PM
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spinlondon

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It would appear from the proposals (which admitedly are only in draft form), a special location will be limited to the zones within a location containing a bath or shower, and a room containing a swimming pool or sauna heater.
http://www.planningportal.gov....F_AD_P_2013_DRAFT.pdf
Good news for kitchen fitters?
 23 December 2012 12:51 PM
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SparkyFacts

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Not surprised. There is an ongoing incentive to water down the industry for electricians. Right now any kitchen fitter can call himself an electrician if they pay for a Part P membership. This will only make it easier for them.

What is to stop them wiring the rest of the house after this?
 23 December 2012 01:11 PM
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alancapon

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As mentioned in the Part P 2013 thread, the other major change is that the installation must now be designed, installed, certified and tested in accordance with BS7671:2008 as amended. This means that all the work carried out should be in accordance with what the DNOs want to see for connection, which is basically compliance with the latest edition of BS7671.

Regards,

Alan.
 23 December 2012 01:56 PM
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spinlondon

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I think that the thing that bugs me most, is that the people who draft Part P seem unwilling to acept the definition of a 'special location' as used in BS7671.
Presently, it's those used in BS7671 plus kitchens and gardens.
The draft proposes only the zones in a location containing a bath or shower and rooms containing a swimming pool or sauna heater.
 23 December 2012 02:16 PM
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jcm256

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Can't be draft Mr Spinlondon when the document is in Book form, cost £8.50 for the book (hardly charge those who want it, for 20 pages at that cost, then bring an amendment).

Description
Effective 6 April 2013.
This edition reduces the range of electrical installation work that is notifiable. In addition, installers who are not registered competent persons can now use a competent person to certify work as an alternative to using building control. The technical guidance throughout now refers to BS7671:2008 incorporating Amendment No 1:2011.
This Approved Document has a fresh new look and has been totally re-designed into a single column format to make reading. It has also been subject to a thorough editorial review to make the text/content more reader-friendly and simpler to assimilate and understand.


http://www.ribabookshops.com/i...-england/79282/


I am not so sure that it will be a gift to Kitchen fitters, the document (also in relation to what was said) incorporates amendments 1 2011, that would be fitting SPD's and PV installations. The kitchen fitters and others that had only a few days training for carrying out part P work, may have to receive additional training. Also if you come across old wiring during your part P work it should be replaced.

Edited: 23 December 2012 at 04:11 PM by jcm256
 23 December 2012 02:38 PM
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spinlondon

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Yes it appears that you are correct, it's not a draft, as the link indicates, but the finalised version.
I guess it's just poorly worded, for instance:
2.9 Installing prefabricated, modular wiring (for example for kitchen lighting systems) linked by plug and socket connectors is also within the scope of Part P, but again is notifiable onle if it involves work set out in regulation 12(6A).

As far as I can see, the example 'kitchen lighting system' would never be something that is notifiable.
It's not a special location, it's not a new circuit and it's not a replacement of a consumer unit.
 23 December 2012 05:04 PM
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rocknroll

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The issue of relieving kitchens from the AD I touched on quite a few posts ago but was not able to comment on it at the time, this task was undertaken by our sister centre at Cambridge to examine and what they basically found was that the majority of accidents in kitchens are not electrically related, burns, scalds, falls and slips, head injuries from worktops and open cupboards are the major issues, what started off as around 6000 domestic homes under survey 10 years ago has now grown to 1.7 million where energy useage is being monitored either by equipment installed or by user participation, with particular reference to kitchens we have evidence that they use as much as 50% less energy than 20 years ago, whilst peak demand in houses is steadily decreasing by around 7% a year, people are more energy concious but a number of the factors are appliances are more energy efficient, dual fuel is a preferred option and peoples lifestyles and cooking habits have also changed dramatically, the most used major appliances are the microwave oven, gas hob and the slow cooker with the oven and dishwasher coming low on the list.

One could argue that Domino's Pizza are using all this saved energy on those smokey little put put's they ride around on all the time.

If you use the new Part P wisely and look at it technically you can avoid the notification trap quite easily, the majority of work you do especially in kitchens and bathroom ceilings outside of zone are extensions to an existing circuit so there should not be too many problems in this area.

This means that all the work carried out should be in accordance with what the DNOs want to see for connection,


That is somewhat of a loose statement and might be something on an small island that can be achieved but the DNO legal and technical parameters up to the service position and the contractors legal and technical parameters from the consumer position are a world apart, the DNO's have much bigger problems to sort out rather than trying to get involved with the standards of BS7671.

It would appear from the proposals (which admitedly are only in draft form),

From what I can gather this was rushed out after pressure from various members (.gov), for the moment I am led to believe it will stay but there is still the option to either remove or modify this document further in the second stage in October 2013 after various independent reports and pending issues relating to EU agreements have been finalised.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 23 December 2012 at 05:13 PM by rocknroll
 23 December 2012 05:48 PM
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aligarjon

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Originally posted by: jcm256

Can't be draft Mr Spinlondon when the document is in Book form, cost £8.50 for the book (hardly charge those who want it, for 20 pages at that cost, then bring an amendment).



It hasn't bothered them before so no doubt it will change after they have sold a few copies.


Gary

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Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 23 December 2012 06:24 PM
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prtadko

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really like this new edition. Much clearer in terms of notifiable/non-notifiable work, special locations now as per the regs and un-registered 'installers' can use 3rd partys to cert jobs instead of LABC. Seems all good to me.
 23 December 2012 07:15 PM
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geoffsd

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I would point out that a special locations is, already, only within the zones.
 23 December 2012 07:44 PM
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alancapon

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Originally posted by: rocknroll
. . . the DNO legal and technical parameters up to the service position and the contractors legal and technical parameters from the consumer position are a world apart . . .

You would be surprised. Section 25(2) of the ESQCR regulations require that an installation connected to the public electricity supply at LV complies with BS7671. Most suppliers include this clause for new connections.


Regards,

Alan.
 23 December 2012 09:39 PM
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rocknroll

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I am more than aware of what ESQCR says, I was making a technical reference on how the two systems differ hugely, whilst there always has been a common bond between both the DNO and the consumer to confirm that the connection is safe by reference or confirmation this is where responsibilities end, most new service connections are in place before the installation has been started or completed and in many cases a declaration or part certificate is required for this, there are no further checks required, by the same token the DNO must also declare to the consumer that the parameters of the supply comply with the voltage, frequency, ELI etc; as outlined by legislation.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 23 December 2012 10:31 PM
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spinlondon

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Originally posted by: geoffsd
I would point out that a special locations is, already, only within the zones.

Not aware that the current Part P treats the location any differently to BS7671, insofar as the extent of the location is limited not by the zones, but by floors, ceilings and walls.

Edited: 24 December 2012 at 10:47 AM by spinlondon
 23 December 2012 10:40 PM
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AJJewsbury

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I would point out that a special locations is, already, only within the zones.

I'm not sure that it does - section 701 for example has requirements that extend well beyond the bath/shower zones - e.g. the prohibition of sockets extends to 3m - i.e. 2.4m beyond current zones, and where the requirement for supplementary bonding applies, it includes the whole room, not just within the zones. The current AD P seems to follow suit.
- Andy.
 24 December 2012 01:25 AM
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geoffsd

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The reference is in relation to the new AD P and notifiable work and the requirements in Schedule 4 (the actual law) already exclude work outside the zones from (edit) being a 'special location'.

Edited: 24 December 2012 at 01:34 AM by geoffsd
 24 December 2012 11:16 AM
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spinlondon

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Originally posted by: geoffsd
The reference is in relation to the new AD P and notifiable work and the requirements in Schedule 4 (the actual law) already exclude work outside the zones from (edit) being a 'special location'.

So it does, changed in 2010.
Shame they didn't mention that in the updated approved document produced at the time.
So we started off with special locations as detailed in BS7671, along with kitchens and gardens.
Then it changed to just the zones in the special locations as detailed by BS7671, but still including kitchens and gardens.
Now we have the zones within a location containing a bath or shower, gone back to a room containing a swimming pool or sauna heater but have ditched the kitchen and garden.
Still bugs me that the term 'special location' in Part P differs to the term used in BS7671.
 24 December 2012 06:58 PM
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rocknroll

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Still bugs me that the term 'special location' in Part P differs to the term used in BS7671.


Geoffsd is technically correct and this has actually been the case from the start but with so many interpretations it all got a bit confusing in the end.

In pre 2000 the original drafting of Part P was not dissimilar to the 2013 version which was contractor friendly, the problem being that everyman and your dog got involved with promises of more training opportunities leading to more employment, better building control compliance etc; so we ended up with the mess we have now.

The original 'safe zone' had no relation to the IEE definition as it was outlined then, RIBA defined it as an area where people would 'normally' be in contact with electrical outlets and equipment so ceilings were not considered such an area, but this led to confusion and was left by reference as the whole room.

The new version although technically a draft document because it will be further updated in some way in October 2013 is contractor friendly and if you use it right should be advantageous to you financially, at least the tie between it and your schemes have been severed but that has been coming for some time.

Approved Documents A-P are not regulatory documents they are guidance documents that contain some mandatory language, so could be referred to in say a planning dispute etc; the regulation that you have to abide by is Regulation 7 and this is to be updated soon, in the October 2013 edition your involvement may be further diminished but Part P along with the other AD's will remain as it is a part of an important suite of rules that ensures a standard that is required for build consistency which results in good homes for all rather than a ad-hoc approach.

Merry Xmas

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 27 December 2012 11:30 PM
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AncientMariner

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Reading through the Draft it only appears to apply in England, not Wales. Whether the change will eventually apply in Wales will be up to our wonderful (?) Welsh Government. Currently we have rules requiring automatic fire sprinklers to be fitted in new homes (in Wales) from September 2013 - which tends to indicate that Wales does not always follow England.

Guess the sprinklers will complicate "zones".....

Will also confuse in the border areas of Wales where we share Postal Towns and Telephone Area Codes with England (CH and 01244 for example in Flintshire)

Cheers!

Clive

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Clive S Carver GCGI IEng MIET
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