IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: PART P
Topic Summary: Information published by DCLG
Created On: 18 December 2012 06:02 PM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
1 2 Next Last unread
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 18 December 2012 06:02 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



John Peckham

Posts: 7409
Joined: 23 April 2005

You maybe interested to read this.

PART P CONSULTATION

I am sure it should spark a debate?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 18 December 2012 07:00 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



normcall

Posts: 8120
Joined: 15 January 2005

Quick look seems to suggest that the 'registration' scheme is perfect and should be mandatory - even to the extent that the existing schemes keep separate.
Apparently the views of NICEIC and the ESC are very similar and not a lot different from the other registration bodies.
LABC seem to like to pass the buck and think electrical work is complicated (unlike plumbing/heating/foundations/light etc.)

As you say John, I'm sure we all have interesting views but one has to say that general standards have improved but still a lot of inexperienced electricians know less than I do and that is worrying.
A bit of paper is a bit of paper. Nothing more, nothing less!

Merry Christmas everyone!

-------------------------
Norman
 18 December 2012 08:29 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for rocknroll.
rocknroll

Posts: 8837
Joined: 03 October 2005

I know that many of you are eagerly watching http://www.xmasclock.com/ waiting impatiently for your new shiny copy of Part P to appear in your stocking hanging inside your van but I am sorry to inform you that Santa G cannot deliver this yearin time for Xmas, firstly three of the documents you refer to are from Jan 2012 and have been moved to the new .gov site you linked to, the fourth document 'summary of responses' although dated Dec 2012 appeared along with various proposals at the end of Oct 2012, these were rejected wholeheartedly by the various groups and ministers as still too regulatory and burdensome and did not comply with the spirit of the rules for de-regulation with regard to 'scrapped' or 'reduced'. By 'scrapped', we mean that regulation is completely removed from the statute book. By 'reduced', we mean that regulations are reduced in number (eg a consolidation, making the rules simpler to find and follow); and/or in terms of the burden they impose (eg reducing who is caught by the regulation; removing domestic gold-plating of EU law; active renegotiation of EU law; simplifying requirements set by the regulation or in related guidance; or reducing the burden of inspection and enforcement arising from the regulation). As a result of this the matter was referred to Smashy and Nicey's office and after a few mulled wine's in front of the fire instructed the new minister to set up an Independent Challenge Panel to look into this further;

The two panels;

Independent Challenge Panel.
Andy Von Bradsky (architect)
David Clements (building control)
Paul Watson (planner)
Kirk Archibald (developer)

Housing Standard Review.
Homes and Communities Agency
House Builders Association
National House Builders Council
National Housing Federation
Habinteg Housing Association
Local Government Association
Planning Officers Society
Home Builders Federation
Construction Products Association
Building Control Alliance
Association of Chief Police Officers
UKGBC
Building Research Establishment
Royal Institute for British Architects
Building Regulations Advisory Council
Greater London Authority

The panels are due to report back in early 2013

Ministers have made it absolutely clear they want everything possible done to remove unnecessary burdens and bureaucracy imposed on developers to get much-needed new homes built, and support economic growth. The current, complex system of building regulations and housing standards will be targeted by a new Independent Challenge Panel, which will consider how these requirements work together and what potential there is to free up the system and make it work more efficiently.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 19 December 2012 at 08:40 AM by rocknroll
 18 December 2012 09:43 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



SAMJAKE

Posts: 437
Joined: 05 June 2007

Originally posted by: rocknroll

I know that many of you are eagerly watching http://www.xmasclock.com/ waiting impatiently for your new shiny copy of Part P to appear in your stocking hanging inside your van but I am sorry to inform you that Santa G cannot deliver this year, firstly three of the documents you refer to are from Jan 2012 and have been moved to the new .gov site you linked to, the fourth document 'summary of responses' although dated Dec 2012 appeared along with various proposals at the end of Oct 2012, these were rejected wholeheartedly by the various groups and ministers as still too regulatory and burdensome and did not comply with the spirit of the rules for de-regulation with regard to 'scrapped' or 'reduced'. By 'scrapped', we mean that regulation is completely removed from the statute book. By 'reduced', we mean that regulations are reduced in number (eg a consolidation, making the rules simpler to find and follow); and/or in terms of the burden they impose (eg reducing who is caught by the regulation; removing domestic gold-plating of EU law; active renegotiation of EU law; simplifying requirements set by the regulation or in related guidance; or reducing the burden of inspection and enforcement arising from the regulation). As a result of this the matter was referred to Smashy and Nicey's office and after a few mulled wine's in front of the fire instructed the new minister to set up an Independent Challenge Panel to look into this further;



The two panels;



Independent Challenge Panel.

Andy Von Bradsky (architect)

David Clements (building control)

Paul Watson (planner)

Kirk Archibald (developer)



Housing Standard Review.

Homes and Communities Agency

House Builders Association

National House Builders Council

National Housing Federation

Habinteg Housing Association

Local Government Association

Planning Officers Society

Home Builders Federation

Construction Products Association

Building Control Alliance

Association of Chief Police Officers

UKGBC

Building Research Establishment

Royal Institute for British Architects

Building Regulations Advisory Council

Greater London Authority



The panels are due to report back in early 2013



Ministers have made it absolutely clear they want everything possible done to remove unnecessary burdens and bureaucracy imposed on developers to get much-needed new homes built, and support economic growth. The current, complex system of building regulations and housing standards will be targeted by a new Independent Challenge Panel, which will consider how these requirements work together and what potential there is to free up the system and make it work more efficiently.



regards


Yes I really think the people on this forum would keep up with current events, not old hat from October! It looks like the voice of common sence will be heard at last, de-regulation massive buzzword, and my old MP is now on the case in the business department! A certain Mr Fallon
 18 December 2012 11:52 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



John Peckham

Posts: 7409
Joined: 23 April 2005

Sorry if my information is not that newsworthy.


However the ministers statement today seems to be in support of Part PMinisters Statement 18/12/2012


Perhaps you might get a copy of the proposed new Part P in the stocking in your van after all! Looks like there will be a new Part P with less notifiable work and a new provision for 3rd party Inspections, the minister must be right or he would not have said so?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 19 December 2012 01:06 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for rocknroll.
rocknroll

Posts: 8837
Joined: 03 October 2005

Dont get too excited its only being placed in the library where other members and their staff can read his proposals, there is still the 'it goes too far brigade' led by your stakeholders and their MP's against the 'it does not go far enough' led by the consumers and their MP's to appease first so it could still be up for a challenge.

The issue of 'third party inspections' has still to be resolved, do you use a 'registered electrician' as the schemes as pushing for or do you open it up to a 'competent electrician' as defined in the IET regulations.

LOL Happy days I think the speculation and fun begins now!!

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 19 December 2012 at 01:12 AM by rocknroll
 19 December 2012 07:12 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



normcall

Posts: 8120
Joined: 15 January 2005

I frequently wonder if all these 'consultees' actually are at the 'sharp end' rather than being 'representatives'.

In a past life, I started a group 'hands on' bodies as we were concerned on the way that regulation and decisions were being made. The existing 'consultative' body/ies were very cosy.
I like to think we gave the department (executive agency in those days) and insight into the real world even to the extend of taking the CE and his sidekick of a guided tour of sites up and down the country. They really had no idea of what went on outside in the real world and the effect that any 'decision' they made would have. I learnt all about things called 'statuary instruments'.

I like to think things have improved (notice 'like to think!!).

-------------------------
Norman


Edited: 19 December 2012 at 09:26 AM by normcall
 19 December 2012 09:02 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 11374
Joined: 13 August 2003

I have my doubts Norm. On the one committee I briefly attended there was a suggestion from one of the 'old guard' (as distinct from us interlopers) that Inspections should include checking for fireproofing sealant around cables as they pass through the hole behind ceiling roses etc - with the obvious implication that we should be gunning intumescent mastic before fitting roses - and a claim that it only takes a few seconds to gun in the mastic. The facts that the cables will inevitably move when connecting them into the rose and so you'd have to leave it for several hours to cure or end up with a sticky mess with gaps in it was left to use 'amateur committee members' to point out.
- Andy.
 19 December 2012 10:44 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Zoro

Posts: 130
Joined: 31 July 2011

Well if you think that it is all over!

Personally I don't think that that it has even started yet.

One thing that has been totally absent from all the meetings and reams of paperwork is the truth.

I think that it is about time that Our Trade had its say, the few people that run The Industry have shown that they are not fit.

http://www.parliament.uk/busin...regs-gov-announcement/


Its all about Money not Safety
 19 December 2012 10:59 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



normcall

Posts: 8120
Joined: 15 January 2005

Money? Don't be silly.
I'm just trying to clear out 40+ years of accounts in the loft (we never throw anything away!) and the fee to be on the approved NICEIC list was £54 a year and I thought it was a bit steep then for what they offered - but it was cheaper than the ECA who required you to actually employ staff.

Zoro - as I've said before, one of the reasons for my resigning was just one qualifying manager was needed and everyone else could be a labourer (it often showed and dare I say, still does on occasions).

-------------------------
Norman
 19 December 2012 11:46 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for rocknroll.
rocknroll

Posts: 8837
Joined: 03 October 2005

Dont despair, the original proposal as to whether you are registered or unregistered and should all compete on an equal basis is still there and looks to be on track, you will notice the minister was again very careful with his choice of words regarding 'competent person', some while ago he was asked to define this by a committee member and it was stated as 'a person who is suitably qualified, owns or has access to current test equipment' with particular reference to the IET definition.

For you all this should not cause too many problems except that the schemes will probably be working hard in the background with ad campaigns and initiatives to influence the public that they should employ an electrician who is registered with them, but you must counteract this and convince the public that you who are unregistered are just as competent.

The main underlying problems that our group uncovered some months ago has not been addressed, what we found was the public were tired of part P and did not consider it important anymore to the extent that notifications were dropping very rapidly and more and more work was being done outside the scope of the system, the main reason for this complacency was the cost and bureaucracy of compliance, this has not been eliminated and the problem has now moved sideways to first and second inspections plus a possible LA charge for a compliance certificate so this will exacerbate the problem even further.

As Zoro pointed out its not over quite yet, there is still a lot of mince pie fighting to go and unhappy bunny's out there, I was sure by now the schemes would have put out something.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 19 December 2012 at 12:16 PM by rocknroll
 19 December 2012 09:14 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



SAMJAKE

Posts: 437
Joined: 05 June 2007

Originally posted by: Zoro

Well if you think that it is all over!



Personally I don't think that that it has even started yet.



One thing that has been totally absent from all the meetings and reams of paperwork is the truth.



I think that it is about time that Our Trade had its say, the few people that run The Industry have shown that they are not fit.



http://www.parliament.uk/busin...regs-gov-announcement/





Its all about Money not Safety


Yes Pigs snoutsin the trough. " ITS THE ECONOMY STUPID" to quote billy clinton!
 20 December 2012 09:56 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



jcm256

Posts: 1861
Joined: 01 April 2006

New On-Line version of Part P coming into operation April 2013

Document P to "BS 7671:2008 incorporating Amendment No 1: 2011", and to update all the references to IET BS7671.


http://www.planningportal.gov....F_AD_P_2013_DRAFT.pdf


Building Control Bodies may ask installers for evidence of their Qualifications.
 20 December 2012 11:14 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 11374
Joined: 13 August 2003

Thanks fort that jcm256 - very interesting reading!

- Andy.
 20 December 2012 11:58 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



whjohnson

Posts: 716
Joined: 24 January 2009

Well, having just read the pdf I cannot see any changes other than permitting a non-registered but I&T qualified installer to do the work for a lower notification fee.

So for me its carry on regardless.

Again, I welcome a backing off stance from LABCs who simply cannot/will not/have no money to to enforce any of this nonsense.

There simply is and never was any real justification for it (other than for those who wish to see a closed-shop) in the first place.

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 20 December 2012 12:25 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 11374
Joined: 13 August 2003

Well, having just read the pdf I cannot see any changes other than permitting a non-registered but I&T qualified installer to do the work for a lower notification fee.

It looks a lot different to me - if you're not creating a new circuit then outdoor electrics aren't notifiable, kitchen electrics aren't notifiable, self-assembled ELV lighting aren't and bathroom electrics only notifiable if inside zones.
- Andy.
 20 December 2012 01:45 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



John Peckham

Posts: 7409
Joined: 23 April 2005

So contrary to what RnR said above you will be able to put a copy of the new Part P document in your Christmas stocking hanging in your van after all!.


So we just need to see what qualities and competencies a 3rd Part Verifier should have, any suggestions?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 20 December 2012 02:14 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 11374
Joined: 13 August 2003

Only a Draft John - who knows what changes will occur before the final version (shades of BS 7671 DPC...)
- Andy.
 20 December 2012 02:45 PM
User is online View Users Profile Print this message



John Peckham

Posts: 7409
Joined: 23 April 2005

I don't think it is a draft it is the final version.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 20 December 2012 02:58 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



AJJewsbury

Posts: 11374
Joined: 13 August 2003

The URL says draft ... www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013_DRAFT.pdf
- Andy.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » PART P

1 2 Next Last unread
Topic Tools Topic Tools
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.