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Topic Title: 2396 exams
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Created On: 06 December 2012 11:34 PM
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 07 December 2012 05:21 PM
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leckie

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Parsley

Ive only been to three, all unpaid, just getting some free practical training from a very knowledgeable friend. Two were TT and one was PME.
 07 December 2012 05:24 PM
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Jobbo

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Leckie

Go for the COMPEX, probably my favourite part of the industry

Regards

Jobbo
 07 December 2012 05:25 PM
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Parsley

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1 out of 3, not bad odds then

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 07 December 2012 05:36 PM
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leckie

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Where did you do COMPEX Jobbo? Ive seen a place in Taunton the others seem to be in Scotland which is a bit of a hike!
 07 December 2012 06:54 PM
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Legh

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Are my questions that stupid Legh?


Lol, when I kicked off on this forum
some thought I was a failed component in a Rolls Royce
and others considered me as 'regimentally Insane'

I'm still getting over the shock

I'd go for the COMPEX training, it could lead into all sorts of other areas of work.
My options are now limited so that one is probably out for me...

Legh

-------------------------
Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 07 December 2012 07:06 PM
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Jobbo

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Although Compex modules 7-8 are the requirement for petrol filling stations, most companies will generally except modules 1-4 which can be undertaken at prospects in Basildon. (These units underline the general principles).

I don't generally undertake work in filling stations as these sites are governed by the big players in the industry. (And its not as interesting)

Modules 5-6 (dusts) can also be taken at Basildon and again very interesting
 07 December 2012 07:37 PM
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peteTLM

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The C course is now city and guilds 4467.

http://www.cityandguilds.com/C...s-engineering/level-4

At 480 GLHours, plus 5-10 hours coursework at home a week for 2 years.

From experience, its like doing a 2391_20 project but every 4 weeks for 2 years, and the maths is a nightmare. Cant wait till its over!

Progression is EE Hnd.

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 07 December 2012 09:36 PM
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leckie

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Wait till you get on your HND. Then the maths will put you on your back
 07 December 2012 10:28 PM
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Zs

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Paul,

I really hope you did well. Right now you are a zombie and in shock? Right? You have a long wait for results and I hope they come out as good ones for you. Now you have to settle down to designing an Argos type store with PV on the roof and an initial load that looks as though it is going to take about three separate supplies (diversify like it was your last chance ever).

Forgive me if I burst any bubbles but 2396 is a regs exam, with added hard sums and little time. It is a pig but it doesn't prove that you are a good electrician with common sense who cares about your customers' safety. Nor does it prove that you can design a circuit for a sensitive bit of kit because, as we all know, that comes from inside us. You simply cannot write instinct down on a piece of C&G paper. IMO 2396 is not much of a design qualification, it is an adiabatic + regs qualification. But it has been like lighting the blue paper without retiring.. From 2396 comes the inquisitive. From there comes a better understanding.

You can't put the physics of what we do into a box and get a tick against it. Can you?

Were I an employer, and with a 2396, I am not sure it would rock me into employing Mr. 2396 over and above Mr experienced and brain-tuned. But I have sure as hell milked it for myself.

2396 has helped me massively and this has been a life changing year. In truth, nobody yet understands what a 2396 is so you have to spell it out, but I have made it work for YT.

The words 'level four', at the moment, mean more to many than the numbers 2396. But that will change in time.

Yes, worth it. In spades. I did not like it, and think it is flawed on many levels. This one kindof doesn't do what it says on the tin. I cannot remember the exact title of this qualifiction but I'm sure B6 will tell us good college by the way, mine is the pink tea cup.

Nonetheless, 2396 is a goodun to have on the CV and I do not recognise myself on my own CV these days. So go for it.

Zs
 08 December 2012 10:37 AM
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OMS

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I guess that sums it up Zs - personally speaking, as someone who has a need to employ engineers from time to time,in a variety of roles, I would look for it as a relevant qualification, but along with other things like experience, behaviour, attitude and outlook - better with than without it to be honest, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker for the right person

I think perhaps the key thing people should recognise from the course is that crunching a few equations is not design, despite what the exam module title suggests - calculation is thefirst 10% and last 20% of the process - design is what takes place in a somewhat circular and iterative fashion in between before you settle on a design current and a cable/installation method type. For sure, there is a good degree of "instinct" in it - it's what seperates "engineers" from the rest.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 08 December 2012 12:20 PM
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B67BU

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Originally posted by: Zs



Forgive me if I burst any bubbles but 2396 is a regs exam, with added hard sums and little time.


A written Regs exam of course it is, whats the title of the the Regs book?.

Hard sums! Not that Ohms Law

Little time 3 hours KIS


2396 has helped me massively and this has been a life changing year.

Yes, worth it. In spades. I did not like it, and think it is flawed on many levels. This one kindof doesn't do what it says on the tin. I cannot remember the exact title of this qualifiction but I'm sure B6 will tell us good college by the way, mine is the pink tea cup.

Thank you Zs that pink cup is in our trophy cabinet

About these qualifications
This qualification helps to develop the essential, up-to-date knowledge and techniques needed to professionally design and install or inspect and test electrical systems.

Who are they for?
This award is ideal for qualified electricians wishing to expand or update their professional knowledge and skills. Level 4 is ideal if you are an experienced electrician, working with minimal or no supervision. You are looking to develop or update your electrical installation and verification knowledge and techniques.




Nonetheless, 2396 is a goodun to have on the CV and I do not recognise myself on my own CV these days. So go for it.



Zs


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Why don't you rock down to Electric Avenue (Birmingham B6 7BU) And then we'll take you higher.

B67BU@ElectricalTraining.co.uk

 08 December 2012 01:53 PM
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OMS

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About these qualifications
This qualification helps to develop the essential, up-to-date knowledge and techniques needed to professionally design and install or inspect and test electrical systems.


Mmmm - I'm not sure it does actually - unless I've missed something

I'd agree that it allows a good technician or junior engineer the opportunity to demonstrate an ability for what is predominantly verification, by calculation, of circuit parameters

It doesn't (and maybe it's not intended to) examine all the design thinking that leads up to that point - except perhaps at a simplistic level.
It does not for example allow the candidate to explore design strategy or design criteria in so many aspects of the project - resilience, economic balancing of circuit layouts, inrush criteria, operational demand and load factors etc etc etc

I'm not suggesting that these criteria can't be implemented in the design solution at the discretion of the candidate - just that the module doesn't, on the surface at least, appear to want them.

Personally speaking, i think the section of the project that deals with testing criteria is wasted - that would be better served in a seperate verification module - the gap being filled up by something akin to a robust design report created by the candidate to allow demonstation of design thinking - a RIBA Stage F report for want of a better description - somewhere to set out all the design assumptions, limits on the design, failure points, intended use etc

I may well be biased however, based on my observation (or perception) of a lack of design thinking in a number of people I come across - I think there was an expectation that this course may have plugged that gap.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 08 December 2012 03:02 PM
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Jobbo

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I wonder if this course will progress into something better?
Does anyone know what type of questions they had this time round?

When me and John undertook this course, we were expecting something at the next level, not the same stuff covered in say the 2360 Part II for example. The only thing that made it hard was the timescale in the exam, nothing else

We had a chap in our class who has a B Eng in Power Engineering and a MSc. He undertook this course as he had not covered 'Electrical Installation' previously and wanted to start contracting. Funny enough he failed and was never heard from again, as did the other 7.

I wonder how JPs class did with their exam? Im sure he put them though their paces!!
 08 December 2012 03:17 PM
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OMS

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I wonder how JPs class did with their exam? Im sure he put them though their paces!!


More than likely - but only insofar as the curriculum requires - my point is that regardless of who delivers it, the content isn't (or at last the outputs aren't) reflective of "design" in any real sense of the word.

I'll go back to what I said when the first course emerged - it needed some input from people involved in front line design, not being totally written by C&G - so the learning outcomes are useful for those looking for an increasingly "design" orientated role.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 08 December 2012 03:49 PM
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aargeitakis

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Thanks everybody for your views.

The problem is that these day to apply for job you must hold a CSCS card. With 20 years electrical experience and all electrical qualifications, I will get an electrician trainee card because I don't have NVQ3 qualifications.
Through my company at the moment I have a CSCS card as an electrician which I can not understand. The same person through a company classed as an electrician and as an individual classed as a trainee.
The other thing is that apprentices come with us for a week take photos and without proper experience get NVQ3 qualifications straight away.

Regards

Paul
 08 December 2012 04:15 PM
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Legh

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Originally posted by: OMS

I wonder how JPs class did with their exam? Im sure he put them though their paces!!


More than likely - but only insofar as the curriculum requires - my point is that regardless of who delivers it, the content isn't (or at last the outputs aren't) reflective of "design" in any real sense of the word.

I'll go back to what I said when the first course emerged - it needed some input from people involved in front line design, not being totally written by C&G - so the learning outcomes are useful for those looking for an increasingly "design" orientated role.

Regards

OMS


I'm sure we had this discussion before...
I suggested that you lead the way in providing a clear example of electrical systems design and you said something along the lines its not for me.
Well the offer still stands, lol, as if I have any authority to offer anything.....

Write a paper / syllabus / course structure for something along the lines of an HNC/HND/Degree to be published under the auspices of the IET and to be used for colleges and training centres.
We would all jump on that one if it ever came to fruition ..... at a reasonable discounted cost, of course...

Legh

-------------------------
Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."
 08 December 2012 04:54 PM
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Jobbo

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Paul

If you have been doing electrical installation for 20 years you will get grandfathers rights. The NVQ3 is only require for those who hadn't qualified as an electrician when it was introduced in 96. The NVQ has been a requirement to be an electrician (JIB) since that date.

It's the same with the AM2. When the AM1 and 2 was introduce, this also became a requirement.

I know this has been covered a million times, but I can't understand that if you want the card, you have to fulfil the requirements. Lets not forget that these youngsters have to then do a minimum of 2 years on the tools to become JIB approved.

I've personally never had an issue with the JIB, as I did an apprenticeship. As I think Zeeper (excuse if wrong) mentioned on another post, that any practicing electrician requiring an NVQ will do it with ease in less than a couple of months. It only gathering evidence of being subjected to certain areas in the industry. Anyone who hasn't done it and needs to, they must enrol soon as its dropped as of end of December. (Unless moved again). The replacement is over double the price
 08 December 2012 05:00 PM
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OMS

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That's perhaps the problem though Legh - for all of the people that have come under my wing, then I will go out of my way to make the design job at hand a learning experience - it'll be subtle things like perhaps setting limits on design current versus MCB type for a project to avoid inrush tripping of luminaire circuits. Or recognising that 2 x 2kW water heaters per floor of a 10 storey office building doesn't need a connected load allocation of 40kW (which also doesn't balance easily across 3 phases) - but it does need some allocation which will vary depending on the building type and attitude towards design risk on that particular project - and whats the circuit type - one heater one 16A or 20A circuit in say 2.5mm2 - or is it 3 heaters per circuit on a 32A 4.0mm2 radial - how critical is loss of 2 good heaters if one has gone bad - will there be non availability recharges back to the landlord or developer - or is it just a tenant issue

External lighting may be another example - you could ignore it for load purposes in most commercial buildings as the occupancy load will drop towards switching on time - but you probably couldn't do that in big retail or say a hospital because the building load is insensitive to switching on time - equally though it may be worth dismissing totally in any building that has compressor driven cooling - the cooling load will be diurnal - so it's tailing off as it gets dark as it's getting cooler outside - but you'd need to understand the probable decrement delay on the fabric or structure and the actual cooling requirement (ie process or comfort)

All of the above are simple issues aimed at getting you to a point when you can settle on Ib and select a cable type - which is the kick off point of the calculations and generally what I mean when I suggest that calculation isn't actually design

Now collating and delivering all that kind of thinking isn't such a supreme challenge, it's often contained in project stagegate reports anyway - getting it into an endorsed curriculum with examination is an infinitely bigger challenge. I'm afraid to say that someone else needs to do that - I'd be happy delivering it though.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 08 December 2012 05:06 PM
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leckie

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Ref JIB card, It depends what exams you tookIf you completed the C&G that were in place at the time and you did a JIB/JTS apprenticeship there should be no problems. If you were not registered with them you may need to do a letter outline what you have done and get your company to write a letter confirming the same. Enclose a copy of your cets, inc 17th update exam and Bobs you uncle.

Even without exams you can get a "Conditional Card" as an installation electrician with your companies letter outlining your experience. The card is conditional that you stay with that employer.
 09 December 2012 11:55 AM
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aargeitakis

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thanks for your replies
Jobbo

I dont think I ll get grandfather rights because I had half of the experience in Greece before I moved to uk. I moved to uk at 1999, finished all my qualification by 2004 and i started work straight away since today.

Regards
Paul
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