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Topic Title: Pet shower in utility room
Topic Summary: Does Section 701 apply
Created On: 19 November 2012 08:02 PM
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 19 November 2012 08:02 PM
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Avatar for sparkiemike.
sparkiemike

Posts: 1512
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I have a customer that wants to install a shower in a utilty room to be used to clean the dogs after a muddy walk.

The shower is the same as a conventional "human" shower with the shower basin approx 1m X 1m with detachable handheld shower head.

There will be sockets within 3m of the edge of the shower enclosure.

It is not a bathroom in the tradional sense but does section 701 apply considering it is a "Location Containing a Bath or Shower"
 19 November 2012 09:59 PM
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peteTLM

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yes its a shower and a bathroom.

Were it to be a proper pet groomers insulated and mechanically adjustable raised bath/shower basin, then id say no. A human isnt going to want to climb into a pet item however tempting

If the house was sold tomorrow, would anyone else sign up for the dreamworld where a shower isnt a shower because regs dont apply to them in their mind?

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 19 November 2012 10:13 PM
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Cremeegg

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The showers use is not defined in the Regs - human or animal. The exception to the Regs in 701.1 is for emergency facilities.

It's a shower in a location so 701 applies.
 19 November 2012 10:32 PM
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sparkiemike

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Thanks for the replies, pretty much confimed what I aready knew.

Anybody know if you can specific dog showers?
 20 November 2012 06:35 AM
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ebee

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Think of it this way.
Special locations are so called because of increased risk.
Risk to property, persons & livestock.
Is a location containing a shower for livestock an increased risk to livestock and to persons? yes.
It is still a special location

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Ebee (M I S P N)

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 20 November 2012 06:53 AM
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sparkiemike

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I don't think pets are classified as livestock.

The increased risk to persons in bathrooms is due to

quoted from IET's guide on special locations
1. Lack of clothing, particularly footwear
2. presense of water reducing contact resitance
3. immersion in water, reducing total body resistance
4. ready availability of earthed metal
5. increased contact area


In this particular case I don't believe the above apply because the shower is not intended for humans or livestock and the risk is no greater when in a kitchen.
 20 November 2012 06:57 AM
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ebee

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If a person is showering a dog then in real life a person might actually get wetter than the dog does

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Ebee (M I S P N)

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 20 November 2012 06:59 AM
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ebee

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I dont class dogs as livestock, they are persons - well they have more attributes as persons than some people I know

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Ebee (M I S P N)

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 20 November 2012 07:08 AM
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ebee

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Surely at least item 2/ of the sepcail locations would apply anyway?

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Ebee (M I S P N)

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 20 November 2012 07:19 AM
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sparkiemike

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Originally posted by: ebee

If a person is showering a dog then in real life a person might actually get wetter than the dog does


Good point, its long time since I owned a dog

Originally posted by: ebee

I dont class dogs as livestock, they are persons - well they have more attributes as persons than some people I know


Ah, I see

Originally posted by: ebee

Surely at least item 2/ of the sepcail locations would apply anyway?


No more than in a kitchen and then we can have sockets 30cm from the sink?
 20 November 2012 07:29 AM
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ebee

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300mm is only a guideline not a reg you could have it closer or might well want it further away, just bear in mind you gotta consider all conditions.

Kitchen sinks (and similarly hand basins in bathrooms etc) do not dictate zones or dimensions from which points such as sockets are not permitted , provided that they are located sensibly.

You would not expect a reasonable person to use a kitchen sink or a hand basin as a bath or shower although we all know that some unreasonable persons do.

The dangers of a dog shower are similar but not necessarily all the same as a human shower. Still warranting a special location and not specifically included as distinct from.

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Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 20 November 2012 07:31 AM
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alancapon

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Originally posted by: sparkiemike
I don't think pets are classified as livestock. . . .

That would be an interesting legal debate. The Road Traffic Act (for example) gives dogs the same rights as livestock, in so far as an RTC involving a dog is reportable, as with sheep, cows, horses etc.

Regards,

Alan.
 20 November 2012 07:42 AM
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ebee

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If you were a dog breeder they would become livestock by any definition



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Ebee (M I S P N)

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 20 November 2012 10:21 AM
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vesuvius

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If you contain the sockets in an enclosure that needs to be opened with a tool or a key you should be fine for the sockets within the zones.
 20 November 2012 11:46 AM
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ebee

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Oh, I did not realise that section 701 gave that as get out clause

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Ebee (M I S P N)

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 20 November 2012 12:32 PM
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vesuvius

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Im saying that without a set of regulations infront of me, havent taught 17th in a while but im 99% sure that might apply.
 20 November 2012 01:49 PM
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AJJewsbury

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If you contain the sockets in an enclosure that needs to be opened with a tool or a key you should be fine for the sockets within the zones.

Seems to go rather against the spirit of the regs. I gather the 3m limit comes from the typical length of lead on appliances - i.e. if plugged in >3m away, it shouldn't be physically possible to drop it into the bath or shower basin. Just needing a key to plug it in would seem to defeat that.
- Andy.
 20 November 2012 02:01 PM
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OMS

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I think the logic goes along the lines of only using the kit when the "showering" risk is absent. It's a bit like sockets for floor cleaners in say changing rooms or poolside complete with key switches or in locked enclosures - you control the use to competent persons who manage the risk of using the equipment in the higher risk environment.

I'd be pretty certain that applying that thinking in an uncontrolled domestic situation wouldn't stack up to any kind of scrutinity

Going back to the OP, just think "wet and naked" - local equipotential bonding and 30mA RCD protection would be my design solution regardless of any special location status

Regards

OMS

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 20 November 2012 02:51 PM
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vesuvius

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OMS raises an excellent point i had notconsidered over the competant person path, even with training (basically you telling them what they can and cannot do) a person/persons may be deemed competant.

Though in a domestic setting this would be very hard to achieve, with sockets anyone could use them for any purpose, it would be open to abuse.
 20 November 2012 03:49 PM
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ebee

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I`ll second what OMS just said

Does "wet and naked" refer to the dog?

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Pet shower in utility room

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