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Topic Title: Letter from ECA
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Created On: 17 November 2012 06:03 PM
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 18 November 2012 09:57 PM
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napitprofessional

Posts: 368
Joined: 08 March 2008

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Evening Boss, I think we have met a couple of times at trade shows.



I don't think many, if any people on this forum have caught on to what is happening.




There are two registers with similar titles:



NAPIT with http://www.electricsaferegister.co.uk which as you say is open to all registered electrciians from any scheme.



NICEIC/ ECA with http://www.electricalsafetyregister.com only open to their own scheme members.



I don't know the politics of all this, but I have noted they are both apparently being launched at the same time.



Regards Andy


I can assure you that I have ....
 19 November 2012 02:09 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 8827
Joined: 03 October 2005

Originally posted by: napitboss

Hi John,

Initially, it will be open to Companies who are Registered with ANY CP Scheme.

But my personal goal is to eventually have a similar model to the Gas register, in that the Electrical Contracting Company will have to employ Qualified Electricians, such that every single Installation, Maintenance activity and Repair work is inspected and tested by a fully Qualified Electrician

This has always been NAPIT's stance and that has not changed one iota.


I think being serious now this needs a bit of important clarification for you all, firstly I quote part of our report,


However, we recommend that the Government reports back to us in two years, on the success of the Government's changes, and in the report review the possibility of a mandatory use of registered installers. (Paragraph 44)


You need to a bit careful here when assuming the references to licencing or gas register model revolve around the whole of your industry, what your schemes are referring to is only revolves around 'Part P domestic' and nothing else, it is selective and based on risk, the commercial, industrial and the construction industry is classed as supervised low risk and being more powerful players than your representatives would not allow any autocratic system to rule for fear of the past coming back to haunt them, the schemes are only referring to the non-supervised domestic sector (Part P) as high risk and the area where most of their members operate and for those involved in I&T risk assessment this is also considered as low risk and would not be included in any 'domestic licencing' arrangement.

The studies that we done in 2007 of licencing and certification schemes around the globe found that most were directed at the poor old domestic customer and the commercial, industrial and construction sector was left exempt from these arrangements for valid commercial reasons, well they would not want a line of licenced commercial electricians standing outside a multi-million pound project stopping the buses of poor migrant workers coming in to do some actual work would they!!

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 19 November 2012 at 02:46 PM by rocknroll
 19 November 2012 02:57 PM
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jcm256

Posts: 1841
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The major high street banks combined have now incurred costs relating to the PPI scandal of more than £10bn -

Can't see how this new Electrical safety Register would cost anything, with the sight of the above, it would be like selling you something you don't need.

Comparison with the Gas safe Register it is not the same:
The Gas Safe Register is the official compulsory registration scheme for gas engineers in Britain and it is illegal to carry out domestic gas work without registration.

The only way to create a level playing field is for the HSE to fund an Electrical safe Register (10 million for gas safe) and make it illegal to carry out domestic electrical work without registration.
 19 November 2012 03:06 PM
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OMS

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and make it illegal to carry out domestic electrical work without registration


Won't happen - we don't kill enough people, and those we do, we do it one at a time - gas is an entirely different ballgame - that has the potential to be really dangerous and to many people in the same incident

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 19 November 2012 03:16 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 8827
Joined: 03 October 2005

The HSE have already commented on this issue, the cost and bureaucracy of an identical scheme could not justified in terms of benefits, with gas installation failures there are much more wider risk of explosions, fires and multiple fatalities which is rarely the case with electrical faults, the present problems with GSR and the issues of people operating outside of the regulatory system because of cost will only escalate further if electricity was regulated.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 19 November 2012 03:52 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11299
Joined: 13 August 2003

in Britain and it is illegal to carry out domestic gas work without registration.

Not entirely true - I believe it's only when the work is done for hire or reward - i.e. DIY gas work is legal.

to create a level playing field

In a way creating a level playing field (for professional installers) is a secondary consideration - public safety should be the first. Don't forget that for many people calling in a professional is a significant barrier (finding someone trustworthy, taking time off work, not knowing whether their advice is accurate or self-serving, finding the money to pay them etc etc) - so many a minor improvement ends up in the 'DIY or not at all' category.

Many people are perfectly able to carry out "adequate" electrical work. If it's a choice between father-in-law adding another socket in the kitchen (even without RCDing the existing circuit) or continuing to run the washing machine/tumble dryer on an extension lead - safety wise, the former wins.

No long ago we were talking about the Aus/NZ situation - almost identical wiring standards - but Australia limited electrical work to licensed electricians - NZ didn't bother - guess who had the better safety record?

- Andy.
 19 November 2012 04:34 PM
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Parsley

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I wonder how many scheme area engineers are worried about this new development?

In the meantime your NICEIC registration continues as normal. You will still receive the same service from the same customer service, assessment and technical teams.

Regards
 19 November 2012 05:40 PM
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B67BU

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Won't happen - we don't kill enough people, and those we do, we do it one at a time -
Regards
OMS


LOL
Now where do i hear that week in week out?

-------------------------
Why don't you rock down to Electric Avenue (Birmingham B6 7BU) And then we'll take you higher.

B67BU@ElectricalTraining.co.uk

 19 November 2012 06:10 PM
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OMS

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You probably hear it because it's true ?

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 19 November 2012 06:18 PM
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michaelbrett

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In light of the topic over the weekend, I e-mailed Emma Clancy (NICEIC CEO) on Sunday morning with my concerns.

Surprisingly, I received a reply Sunday afternoon. I also aked for Emma Clancys' agreement that I post her response so, here it is:

'Hello Michael,

Thanks for getting in touch, I appreciate you giving me the chance to respond to you personally.

I read with interest the debate on the forum. We are launching tomorrow so much more than a register; we are launching a partnership between the key industry bodies the ECA , ESC , ELECSA and NICEIC. This partnership is based around the principle that there is too much confusion in the market place and we need to work together with one voice to government. All three bodies are not for profit and provide a unique service to the industry and have been giving careful thought to making this commitment work for over two years as it is something that is designed to last for decades.

The register is just one part of a range of initiatives. However it will be a great tool for specifiers and consumers to search for a competent person to undertake work. The register is fully functioning from tomorrow and already has 36,000 people registered and is fully searchable. The register will then be supported by the partnership organisations who will share funds previously used to compete, to promote our customers. However other benefits will follow; including discounted membership of ECA for NICEIC contractors; fees being harmonised down for the customers who otherwise would pay more and a free on line training course for all customers. This is just the beginning.

As a NICEIC customer you need to do nothing at all to be included to the register and enjoy the benefits described above. We also guarantee that you will see the same area engineer as you currently do and there will be no change to anything else such as telephone numbers as a result of the partnership.

I know very little about the NAPIT website , and we share their objective of promoting competent people and are happy to explore other partnerships. However, any future partner needs to support the charity and trade association and be prepared to meet the assessment standard we set.

Hope this helps,

Best wishes,

Emma.


I also cc'd the area Engineer, but, as I have not had asked if I can post his response, I will summarise the guts of his note:

It is business as usual. Nothing will change with regard to the Area Engineers, assessment visits and support.

As yet I have not received the letter from the NICEIC that has been discussed elsewhere.

Hope the above is of interest.

Regards

Mike
 19 November 2012 06:25 PM
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Zs

Posts: 2791
Joined: 20 July 2006

I've been thinking about this on the way home.

What qualifications and experience do you have to have in order to become NICEIC Domestic Installer? I think it is pretty basic, stuff such as 17th edition, and one of the basic city and guilds. Please confirm if you know.

Napitboss, the new ElectricSafe comes across as having all good motives and I'm comfortable with such a register. However, please don't set a really easy set of qualifications as the bar for being respected in this industry. I think that would be a step backwards and you might create some in-house apathy. If you are not meeting electricians from all levels then please get out and meet at least 20 of the bog standard ordinary Joe type. You won't find them on forums I'm afraid, we care on here. You will be shocked by them...Maybe ask Richard Townsend from the IET to put you in touch with a few? That's not sarcastic, Richard meets them at the shows.

I'm loyal to Napit for various reasons. Three of those are the P the I and the T in the name.

Just wanted to say that rising above it isn't all bad. Can we keep our standards please?

Zs
 19 November 2012 06:27 PM
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rocknroll

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Ms Emma Clancy gets around a bit.

http://www.companiesintheuk.co...d/certsure-operations

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 19 November 2012 06:34 PM
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Zs

Posts: 2791
Joined: 20 July 2006

Starbucks?

Edit: Norm, This lady is practically your next-door neighbour but a bit posher. You just have to arrange tea and cakes for us Oh go on Norm. You are a local political bloke, you can swing a cup of tea for three.

Edited: 19 November 2012 at 06:53 PM by Zs
 19 November 2012 06:50 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 8827
Joined: 03 October 2005

The big question here is, is it a merger or a takeover and will you all eventually become 'Certsure' electricians with a big tick across the logo, this will get me into trouble again.

Remember in the business world if someone tells you something you think the opposite then its usually right. LOL

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 19 November 2012 06:54 PM
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bajb

Posts: 560
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And an extract from a NAPIT letter received this evening:

"....... Shortly after the launch of ElectricSafe, the NICEIC, in partnership with the ECA and Elecsa, launched the 'Electrical Safety Register', a rival, consumer facing register which excludes 6 out of the 9 electrical registration providers. The Electrical Safety Register does not allow NAPIT, Benchmark, BESCA, BSI, OFTEC or Stroma members to join.

We recognise that having rival schemes will only spread more confusion and do nothing to improve consumer recognition of Competent Persons. This is why the ElectricSafe Register, has been developed by NAPIT to allow ALL members of any CPS scheme to join. ......"

I wonder whether they both did coincidentally launch at almost the same time, or whether one is a spoiler for the other?
 19 November 2012 06:55 PM
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michaelbrett

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Originally posted by: Zs

I've been thinking about this on the way home.



What qualifications and experience do you have to have in order to become NICEIC Domestic Installer? I think it is pretty basic, stuff such as 17th edition, and one of the basic city and guilds. Please confirm if you know.



Napitboss, the new ElectricSafe comes across as having all good motives and I'm comfortable with such a register. However, please don't set a really easy set of qualifications as the bar for being respected in this industry. I think that would be a step backwards and you might create some in-house apathy. If you are not meeting electricians from all levels then please get out and meet at least 20 of the bog standard ordinary Joe type. You won't find them on forums I'm afraid, we care on here. You will be shocked by them...Maybe ask Richard Townsend from the IET to put you in touch with a few? That's not sarcastic, Richard meets them at the shows.



I'm loyal to Napit for various reasons. Three of those are the P the I and the T in the name.



Just wanted to say that rising above it isn't all bad. Can we keep our standards please?



Zs


Zs

My understanding is that the entry requirements will not change and will be based on the highest common denominator and there will be no 'watering down' (by the NICEIC, ECA , ELECSA 'mob').

Don't know about NAPIT.

Regards

Mike
 19 November 2012 06:56 PM
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Zs

Posts: 2791
Joined: 20 July 2006

I don't want that R&R, but it is certainly a possibility. I 'm not putting you on my trouble list for saying that. Zs
 19 November 2012 07:20 PM
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MrP

Posts: 832
Joined: 24 March 2006

Emma you need to be very very careful who you get in bed with

ECA NICEIC ELCSCO ESC

All are equal and all are competent I am sure your not a stupid woman

MrP
 19 November 2012 07:50 PM
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OMS

Posts: 19471
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Well guys and gals - we are one step closer to that register a lot of you have been demanding - just that we have two at the moment and the fighting is about to start - and it's already more divisive now than at any point in the last two decades - as some of us have been heard to say - be careful what you wish for

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 19 November 2012 08:22 PM
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John Peckham

Posts: 7381
Joined: 23 April 2005

OMS

I think we were asking for a register of competent individuals not a list of companies of have at least one competent person.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Letter from ECA

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