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Topic Title: Letter from ECA
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Created On: 17 November 2012 06:03 PM
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 17 November 2012 10:46 PM
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John Peckham

Posts: 7253
Joined: 23 April 2005

You have my support in that but I think it will be a long road to tread with considerable opposition.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 17 November 2012 10:48 PM
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napitboss

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Hi Phillron,
That is simply not true.

NAPIT have always pushed for a true Competent Individual Electrician Scheme, but the 'old guard' organisations just see that type of scheme as a threat, not what it really is, which is a benifit to both our industry and it's customers

So up to now I have not managed to get enough political support in the face of opposition for it to get it started.

What we need in the Electrical Industry is a model where Registered Electrical Contractors must use only 'Licenced Electricians' and that always has been and always will be NAPIT's goal.
 17 November 2012 10:53 PM
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michaelbrett

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So we have a CP register, Trustmark and now two registers.

This is so gonna confuse the public.

Why add even more confusion?

Additionally, I can see another 'Trustmark' type scheme with additional costs (eventually) for the Contractor. What benefit is this going to bring?

I don't know about anyone else but I have only received one enquiry via the Trustmark site and that was a waste of time. Customer eventually used a non-registered entity who was cheaper.

Regards

Mike
 17 November 2012 11:03 PM
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napitboss

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Hi Mike,
I totally agree with your sentiments, there is far too much confusion for Joe Public, that is why the Electrical Industry needs just one name for all and why eventually we need a licence to practice regime.

As to cost, the ElectricSafe Register that we have launched has no cost attached to it for you at all.

Other than your normal registration fee to whoever you are with.

As for the CP and Trustmark brands, where does it say Electrical in that?

With ElectricSafe, it does what it says on the tin - what nonesense it is for all the different Registration Bodies to be spending money on Consumer Advertising when all we are doing is causing Consumer Confusion by bombarding them with all the different names.

Yes, we should be competing in the Trade for your membership, but at the end of the day our competition, like yours, should be on quality and price and you should have a system where, if you are not happy, you can go elsewhere with your business.

Monopolies breed Corporate arrogance and poor value for money

11pm is late enough - goodnight
 17 November 2012 11:11 PM
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sparkingchip

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I agree it needs a new central online database such asNAPIT's Electric Safe Register which can list all eligible enterprises.

It is needed because as stated by NAPIT the Competent Persons website is not known to the general public and as you can see from my post on this forum earlier this year i consider it has become a chocolate teapot (useless) http://www.theiet.org/forums/f...id=205&threadid=43021

Reading the lines "NAPIT recognise that consumers will not think of the phrases "NAPIT registered" or "Competent Person" when they are searching for electricians and ElectricSafe seeks to address this problem head-on by establishing a single, recognisable brand. " I think NAPIT has a firm grip on reality.Whilst NAPIT may need to improve its brand image even fewer people could tell you that the ECA and Elecsa are a electrical tradeassociation and competent persons register or what that competent persons register is about.

I have told NAPIT staff that in my opinion NAPIT should stop advertising the electricians in trade magazines and start using the advertising budget to promote NAPIT in glossy home improvement, kitchen and womens magazines. If there is a higher public awareness of NAPIT with consumers increased membership will follow, lets get consumers briefed on the benefits of using the services of a NAPIT registered enterprise along with the requirements of part P and not get too worried about those who won't play ball.

Andy
 17 November 2012 11:23 PM
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sparkingchip

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By the way, earlier this evening I typed a post on "what the hell is the green deal" regarding the hatchet job the press have now done on the Green Deal, having just completed it and whilst I was reading it through my new netbook decided to close itself down to update windows, so I lost the lot and I haven't summoned up the will to type it again.

Now there is an example of how lack of publicity, and when there is publicity it is bad press, can potentially to kill a scheme.

Andy
 17 November 2012 11:32 PM
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whjohnson

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I dearly hope that this latest debacle fails too, because there's no way I'm joining it, nor any of the other half-brained nonsense.

They can have as many N's I's C's or whatever in their names but I have survived without joining any of em since 1977 and I ain't joining now.

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 17 November 2012 11:49 PM
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rocknroll

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Monopolies breed Corporate arrogance and poor value for money


Unfortunately that is what any form of licencing scheme will bring to you.

Anyway before you go to bed worrying about it and losing sleep let me relieve some of the pressure for you, as I pointed out in another thread some months ago the various groups working for the various select committees whose task it was to scrutinise the evidence put forward by the various stakeholders had completed their reports, our main task at Cambridge was issues relating to GSR, EU Barrier to Trade agreements and UKAS accreditation and this is the follow up of all of the groups findings and the reply from the government.

http://www.parliament.uk/docum...%20Gov%20Response.pdf

To align yourself with GSR is as I pointed out in the other thread may not be a healthy choice, for this I will quote a question by a colleague in one of the hearings.

Quote
Simon Danczuk "I have a simple yes and no question. I have here some statistics from the Gas Safe Register that show 55% of all work carried by unregistered workers is unsafe. Some figures from the Association of Registered Gas Installers show that at least 50% of all gas work carried out in the UK is considered to be illegal. My question to each of you, it can be answered yes or no is, do you think that the current building regulation is adequate when it comes to the installation of gas heating appliances?"
Unquote

This is an issue that took us a lot of time to sort out and although a preliminary report was issued to the committe it is still an ongoing issue and is with the HSE researchers to get to the bottom of it.

In the various meetings with your stakeholders there does seem an air of desperation and panic because their evidence was not taken at face value and the government had in the wings various study groups to analyze this, so initiatives like this of jossling for the bigger slice will probably materialise over the next few months as more an more uncertainty of the outcome increases, there are two ways this can go at present which depends on which side of the political spectrum you reside, revocation (liberal way) or cutting the costs for consumers and small businesses alike and culling the level of notifiable work (tory way).

Sleep well, it will be alright on the night.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 18 November 2012 at 12:17 AM by rocknroll
 17 November 2012 11:57 PM
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rocknroll

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Sorry link may not have worked, try this;

http://www.parliament.uk/busin...mmittee/publications/


Click on;

Government Response to the Committee's Tenth Report of Session 2010-12: Building Regulations applying to electrical and gas installation and repairs in dwellings - Cm 8369 - Published July 2012 ()Cm8369 | Published 16 July 2012

at the bottom of the page

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 18 November 2012 12:27 AM
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sparkingchip

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Here's a thought before I go to bed, the Plumbing Competence scheme seems well and truly buried, would the country have been better with it?

Andy
 18 November 2012 12:56 PM
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sparkingchip

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Regards the Electric Safe Register, upon consideration I think NAPIT needs to paddle its own canoe and quietly push ahead with the register. It may just end up being a intenet directory of electricians rather than a defining resource, but even so it will have a valid purpose and I will support it.

Andy
 18 November 2012 02:10 PM
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Zs

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'Certsure LLP'.

LLP, how curious for such a scheme. Do we know who the Partners are?

How to say this politely? I just have to go for it so you let me know if it needs to be edited away fellas. Preferably before the mods get in on Monday.

Yes, I thought one or two of you wouldn't like it and this has been edited.

There are new brooms at, or close, to the helms of two of those companies, the ECA and NICEIC. They are not technical new brooms. I wonder if the battle to preserve business is on and is happening in Starbucks. It does seem a bit of a monopoly brewing. The prize will be awarded to whoever gets a yellow and black triangle logo. And what of the Electrical Safety Council?

As you know, I have recently drawn daggers with the newly appointed lady president of the ECA, on the subject of special opportunites for women coming into training as electricians and an initiative with Summit skills to train, and provide jobs to a group of Women. Not to do with registration and safe practice in this case, but to do with sexism against men. Apparently Brucie Bonus and myself are unique in not requiring special help or job opportunities. That's not especially relevant for this thread but an example of some of the changes and initiatives which are being dreamed up. IMO the argument in favour of 'wired for success' is extremely poor.

I've an interview in December on a BBC local radio station, with two other lady trades. I have agreed to go reluctantly, so as to dilute the high-fiving girl-power flavour which may be encouraged. I've no idea what I am stepping in to so you take a real chance on wasting some of your time, but 19th Dec, BBC three counties, for an hour. It might be an opportunity to fly the flag for electrical safety. Napit boss, I'll ask you for some reading matter about these changes before that day by way of being informed before the interview.

I'm not in any secret loop about this and I don't get it, but my instinct is telling me the motives for this aren't quite right. Is it a rush-job from all concerned?

But how many electricians does it take to prevent a death? The safety aspect is good. A certificate does not ensure the job is safe, it just gives a place for the buck to stop and issue a summons.

Zs

Edited: 18 November 2012 at 08:07 PM by Zs
 18 November 2012 02:53 PM
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sparkingchip

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Are you suggesting my right to choose my registration scheme maybe taken away from me?

Andy
 18 November 2012 03:26 PM
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MrP

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Zs who is the newly appointed lady president I know Diane who covered it in 2010 just goggled the post and it's currently a guy has Diane been nominated again?

MrP home in 31days
 18 November 2012 04:10 PM
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Zoro

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Another selection of membership brands will not help Contractors and Electricians in any way, in response to NAPIT's initiative of ElectricSafe which is free, the NICEIC/ESC, ECA/ELECSA owners have displayed yet again, by their actions the desire to have a monopoly owned by themselves.

By the silence of the ESC on the Subject of the Unlawful Killing of Emma Shaw by an NICEIC contractor, it is obvious they do not wish to enter into a discussion on Safety in the Industry.

They have totally refused to demand that their wholly owned trading arm the NICEIC set safe standards for their Registrants in the homes of the public.

They still cling on to the deception that a Competent Enterprise where only one person needs to be Competent is safe.

How can anyone have faith in the Electrical Safety Council, putting the safety of the public first, instead of the commercial interests of the NICEIC.

The Gasafe style system of individual competence is the only safe way forward for the Public, without individual Competence, Competent Person Schemes are just a sham, which we all know.
 18 November 2012 06:14 PM
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jcm256

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How could a schemes trust mark? Be valid when the JIB for the Electrical contracting industry do not consider even a part P Qualified Supervisor as an electrician.

See this month wiring matters What is an electrician.


Quote:


Short 'Part P' training
programmes are only for individuals
who have been working within the
industry for at least two years and wish to
be registered as a Qualified Supervisor
for their company. These courses do not
qualify individuals as electricians





The JIB has a long history of crediting the formal qualifications
held by professional electricians
through the ECS card. Anyone who
holds an ECS can easily demonstrate
that he or she has met the requirements
to truly be called an electrician. *

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/


It was reasonable question put to the NAPIT Boss. Are you registering persons or companies? , No satisfactory answer posted. The cards can company personal use them not infrequently? for private work outside of company business.
;
.
Good luck anyhow. Below is another lot of disgruntled people.

http://www.linkedin.com/groups...ck=.gmp_4412379


Regards.

Edited: 19 November 2012 at 08:43 AM by jcm256
 18 November 2012 07:29 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: napitboss

So up to now I have not managed to get enough political support in the face of opposition for it to get it started.

What we need in the Electrical Industry is a model where Registered Electrical Contractors must use only 'Licenced Electricians' and that always has been and always will be NAPIT's goal.



Try harder its worth it!

I'm not interested in the be careful what you wish for argument it's is so often used by those with a vested interest in not having licensing,

It is worth noting that the annual GSR Fee is only £186.00

Significantly cheaper than ALL the schemes!

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 18 November 2012 07:48 PM
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rocknroll

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It is worth noting that the annual GSR Fee is only £186.00


Dont forget the initial £3k for new registrants and the ongoing five year competences charges, how much does that add to above annual fee if balanced over the five years.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 18 November 2012 09:46 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: rocknroll

It is worth noting that the annual GSR Fee is only £186.00




Dont forget the initial £3k for new registrants and the ongoing five year competences charges, how much does that add to above annual fee if balanced over the five years.



regards


I am forgetting the 3k initial because it was £450 fot the first year/ registration..

It's £1200 5 yearly on training

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 18 November 2012 09:56 PM
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John Peckham

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NAPITBOSS

Here is your big chance to show the way and do something for public safety let your register only show the names of individuals who have been assessed as competent. You can still show the names of the companies they work for a bit like the way that CIBSE (and Gas Safe) does it. That way Mr and Mrs Public may know if a person who turns up on the door step is competent rather than some numpty who works for a registered company.

It would appear the electrical bodies are trying to steal the clothes of the Gas Safe scheme who register individuals thereby deceiving the public in to thinking they have an equivalent scheme.

I am sure it would be a good thing for Watchdog to look at.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Letter from ECA

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