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Topic Title: NEW QS REQUIREMENTS
Topic Summary: REVISED EAS DOCUMENT
Created On: 09 November 2012 10:16 PM
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 12 November 2012 06:52 PM
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Zs

Posts: 2910
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Going back to the OP, which I have only just found time to read through. Good. I think that is appropriate.

On the subject of grandfathers' rights for existing QS members of the clubs I reckon if you are an NIC domestic then a quick transfer to NAPIT is the order of the day for you in order to benefit from the full-scope status they will give you. Instant QS

I want a commission NAPIT .

Zs
 13 November 2012 08:54 AM
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kj scott

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Originally posted by: zeeper

Second I already hold and NVQ level 4 (QCF 4) and QCF level 6




I am not commenting on your personal situation.



As we have seen in the passed the schemes and scams dont reconise qualifications that are not relevant to the electrical installation industry. If you what to be reconised as competent in design,installation and commissioning of electrical systems its no good having a level 6 or degree in electronics or hnd in electrical engineering. These are not electrical installation qualifications. They can been gained with out even picking up a screw driver. I understand that the above people have a good grasp of electrical theory but not at the lower level of installation. I work sometimes with a project engineer who is very knowledgeable and has a hnd in electrical engineering. But he has very limited knowledge of the BS7671, none of building regs, and has never worked as a jobbing spark.



My point is qualifications need to be relevant to what your doing. It is difficuit to prove experience. everybody lies.


My level 4 Qualification is in Electrical Installation Craft, although obtained from Electrical Building Services Engineering background unfortunately the level 6 just says Engineering.

That said if you go to the link in Jobbo's post, pre 1994 qualifications allow you to register, as long as you have a certificate of apprenticeship, or deeds of apprenticeship, of which I have both.

Where would youget either deeds or an apprenticeship diploma from in those days?

Surprise, surprise........... the JIB.

Feathering of ones own nest springs to mind.

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 13 November 2012 12:08 PM
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zeeper

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yeah I guess they are trying for a one size fits all solution and it dont fit. The only winners are those with grandfather rights, but there the reason why the system is being tighten up. .
 13 November 2012 12:56 PM
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Parsley

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Originally posted by: zeeper

yeah I guess they are trying for a one size fits all solution and it dont fit. The only winners are those with grandfather rights, but there the reason why the system is being tighten up. .


Well 20 + years ago an apprenticeship meant you actually learnt something, college wasn't watered down either. Yes I&T may not have been carried out like it is now, but the timeserved sparks that taught me knew how to install it correctly in the first place!

Regards
 13 November 2012 07:14 PM
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kj scott

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Originally posted by: zeeper

yeah I guess they are trying for a one size fits all solution and it dont fit. The only winners are those with grandfather rights, but there the reason why the system is being tighten up. .


Can you expand on; or support this statement zeeper?

I believe the reason for the new requirements is to establish a benchmark for a recognised level of competence


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 14 November 2012 08:24 AM
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zeeper

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Can you expand on; or support this statement zeeper?


I believe the reason for the new requirements is to establish a benchmark for a recognised level of competence


And the reason why this new bench mark was need is why. KJ I'm not saying your not competent I dont know you. However if up to now there has been a issue with safety,quality of workmanship and competency of part p installation electrical persons who are members of the scams. How is giving the current grandfathers a free meal ticket going to help the situation. If your saying that the above has never been an issue , then whats the point in changing the rules.


If the new NVQ3 will be the minimum requirement, will an existing NVQ3(electrical) be sufficient, or will the new one need to be achieved?


2356+2394+2395 or 2357 + 2395 = AC
 15 November 2012 04:41 PM
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BigRed

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Giving grandfather rights might help those granfathers stay in an ever increasingly pain in the ass, run by people who can pass exams but can't wire a 13 a plug, to educate the newbes on ever decreasing trade standards.
 16 November 2012 08:41 AM
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zeeper

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, run by people who can pass exams but can't wire a 13 a plug, to educate the newbes on ever decreasing trade standards.


Sorry but I think you giving the current grandfathers to much credit. The current decrease in standards are a result of the curent crop of QS's(grandfathers) and plumbers,builders , and painters and all the other trade persons who think its a free for all as far as electrics are concerned.

If you have obtain a 2330level 2+3,nvq3,2394,2395(2391),17th. YOu can wire a plug and hold current and relevant knowledge anything else you need to know can google it.
 16 November 2012 09:20 AM
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kj scott

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Both the old system and the new have their failings, however it is difficult to bring in a new scheme of registration and then say to everyone previously accepted as competent, sorry but you need to requalify now.

There are good and bad exponents of the trade from all generations; but the later schemes are too short and too reliant upon multiple choice qualifications.

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 16 November 2012 11:15 AM
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OMS

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If you have obtain a 2330level 2+3,nvq3,2394,2395(2391),17th. YOu can wire a plug and hold current and relevant knowledge anything else you need to know can google it.


That'll be me on google then

Bit of a daft statement don't you think Zeeper - there are good, bad and indifferent from every generation, why do you think this one will be any different. Perhaps something for you to ponder - new brooms rarely sweep as clean as they were intended to

regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 16 November 2012 02:47 PM
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BigRed

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As I appreciate that we have to keep up with current standards, i'm not fussed having to requalify for regs, I get a little miffed when i'm told by some spotty oik that my 25 years in my trade and all my quals don't count for jack unless i've got an NVQ3, which , now i work for someone else means are unobtainable. I did my 5 years, and are continuing to be educated, but this "grandfather " is fed up of being told to suck eggs by people who want to make money.
at least when we took 236 1, 2 and c they taught us how and why and not just how to put the correct answers on a computer. You were scared of 2391 as it was a b*tch of a test AND PRACTICAL . it comes to something when the sparks in the room where our 17th regs was been taught knew infinitly more than the person dictating the course!

ok soapbox mo over.
 16 November 2012 02:54 PM
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zeeper

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Bit of a daft statement don't you think Zeeper


It wouldnt the first or last, but not htis time.

there are good, bad and indifferent from every generation


Correct, so why are the current rabble above it, there not.

why do you think this one will be any different.


I dont just think they need a chance.

new brooms rarely sweep as clean as they were intended to


I though you were against the bang test.

That'll be me on google then


I use many resources for information, forums,manufactures data,bs7671,wiki,google,eland,RS, whole saler,to name but a few, I'm not a superspark I cant remember everything. And so many diverse things come over my desk half the time I dont even try to put it to memory. I just move on to the next thing.
 16 November 2012 03:08 PM
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John Peckham

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It is interesting that I have had students with 2330, AM2 and NVQ3 come on my 2391 courses who don't know their amp from their elbow about inspection and testing. I once gave such a qualified student a loop tester and told him to test all the sockets in the workshop and tell me which one had the highest Zs, he could not do it and did not even have a clue how to start.

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John Peckham

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 16 November 2012 03:09 PM
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OMS

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I'm not sure why you have a bee in your bonnet over this Zeeps - you must realise that you simply cannot bin previous qualifications and the people who obtained them just because a bit of tinkering with the system.

I don't have any of the quals you listed (except a 2391 which I took as a requirement to be a QM with a big contractor), I don't have an NVQ3 - it didn't exist during my formative years

I don't need them for my day job, but if you are suggesting that older C&G exams and an indentured apprenticeship coupled with further experiential learning doesn't make for competent people then I think you've lost the plot.

To blame declining standards on people who are for the most part technically more qualified than the current crop seems a bit silly, don't you think.

Regards

OMS

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 16 November 2012 03:21 PM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: John Peckham

It is interesting that I have had students with 2330, AM2 and NVQ3 come on my 2391 courses who don't know their amp from their elbow about inspection and testing. I once gave such a qualified student a loop tester and told him to test all the sockets in the workshop and tell me which one had the highest Zs, he could not do it and did not even have a clue how to start.


Irrespective of the student's ability you should have demonstrated the test and method and then asked them to do it, you have fallen into my 'bad teacher' trap again, using a student to demonstrate something negative and in so doing making him/her feel singled out and self conscious proves my point again, there is no such thing as bad students only bad teachers.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
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"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 16 November 2012 04:07 PM
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John Peckham

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Thanks for that RnR. You make a number of assumptions before coming to a conclusion all of which are wrong! In addition the 2391 was a career extension course for people who already have certain qualifications and experience of I&T as an entry requirement. I leave the judgement of my teaching skills to my students and assessors not to others.

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John Peckham

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 16 November 2012 05:08 PM
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Paradigm

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Originally posted by: rocknroll


, there is no such thing as bad students only bad teachers.

regards


And it looks like you've fallen into my "say a lie often enough and it becomes the truth" trap again


Have a platitude free weekend everyone

Nick

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"be careful of what you write"
 16 November 2012 05:14 PM
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rocknroll

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Thanks for that RnR.

Thats okay anytime , one of the biggest problems in trade courses is its easy to teach course content and most could do that, where the skill is in teaching students thats where the majority dont have that ability.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 16 November 2012 05:14 PM
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BigRed

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well a quick way of sorting out the good from the bad, get them to wire a star delta starter from scratch....and no, it's not called an inverter...
 16 November 2012 05:20 PM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: BigRed

well a quick way of sorting out the good from the bad, get them to wire a star delta starter from scratch....and no, it's not called an inverter...


LOL How many tutors would be able to do that, count them on one hand I guess.

Anyway you have to teach them how to do it first, then ask them to do it, no good throwing a few handouts around and say do this., my point!!

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
IET » Wiring and the regulations » NEW QS REQUIREMENTS

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