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Topic Title: Kitchen fitter madness
Topic Summary: appliance outlets
Created On: 07 November 2012 07:44 AM
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 07 November 2012 07:44 AM
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benspark

Posts: 21
Joined: 20 July 2007

I wonder if I am losing the plot a bit with Kitchen fitters?!

I have been asked to provide a new ring and lighting circuit to a new kitchen extension, and as not specification was issued I asked the customer if they had any specific requirements. They was keen to have a couple banks of double grid switches for the appliances to cut down on FCU's, so I have done as they asked and terminated at a 1g 13amp outlet per appliance.

The kitchen fitter has come in demanding that either a flex outlet and pattress is place inside the cupboard unit or a flex outlet is placed instead of the 13 amp 1 gang. I have said no as in my view where the feed is switched from a non-fuse rated d/p switch you need a means of rating the supply to the appliance accordingly (either plug top or FCU), I am also not a lover of outlets in cupboard due to the risk of potential mechanical damage from drawers etc - they have gone mad and trying to kick me off the job....am I wrong to bark back?

Any thoughts?

Ben
 07 November 2012 07:51 AM
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JZN

Posts: 562
Joined: 16 November 2006

I can see your point here Ben, but can't understand what the kitchen fitter is on about. If he insists on a flex outlet then why does he object to an FCU? An FCU is just a flex outlet with a fuse isn't it? you can get them without a switch. Just an outlet plate with a fuse tray.

John
 07 November 2012 08:05 AM
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benspark

Posts: 21
Joined: 20 July 2007

John -

I think the problem is I am not there usual 'buddy' and he always provides a flex outlet in a cupboard - and these fitters just cannot think for themselves. As you have mentioned I have said that I am happy to provide a un-switched FCU but they realise they will then have to connect into it - is it always hard work???

The point they don't get is that not every appliance is rated to 13 amps - so when i said what is the rating required for the gas hob igniter they said they didn't know and I said exactly !

These forums are good to makes sure you are not going mad - thanks.
 07 November 2012 09:00 AM
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OMS

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I think the problem is I am not there usual 'buddy' and he always provides a flex outlet in a cupboard


So presumably he then cuts the plug off the appliance and hard wires into the flex outlet - probably invalidates the appliance gaurantee and makes it difficult for the housholder to swap appliances if required.

On the basis you appear to be dealing with a complete shower of wood butchers just tell them to ***** off - deal direct with your client over what they want

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 07 November 2012 05:25 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11587
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Might their usual sparks have put fuse carriers as well as switches in the grids? If so, there'd obviously be an opportunity to fuse-down appropriately there. It does seem a bit long-winded since most appliances come with a manufacturer-approved fusing and isolation facility (i.e. a 13A plug).

I guess they're used to cutting the plugs off and threading the leads through a small hole in the cabinet walls.

You might be able to play on the fact that most grid switches aren't rated for isolation (see table 53.4) - so work/repair on an appliance would strictly speaking necessitate isolating the entire circuit, possibly the whole house (especially if TT).

- Andy.
 07 November 2012 05:39 PM
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colinhaggett

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Just make sure the kitchen is deeper enough for the appliances to push back if the plug is behind them.
 07 November 2012 05:46 PM
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OldSparky

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well i just put the socket outlet in the cupboard and the guys i work with cut a hole big enough for the plug to pass through..

I must admit kitchens are becoming a pain, i am on a job at present and the builder says he doesnt want see the cooker isolator, i cant put it in the cupboard because it is a draw pack.. so told him sorry chum you going to get to look at it and if you dont like it put a jar in front of it
 07 November 2012 06:27 PM
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peteTLM

Posts: 3187
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As OMS says, there is going to be trouble with the warranty in cutting the plug off. No kitchen firm i/we do stuff for will cut plugs off, its just not worth the aggro.

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Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 07 November 2012 07:25 PM
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stateit

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Originally posted by: peteTLM

As OMS says, there is going to be trouble with the warranty in cutting the plug off. No kitchen firm i/we do stuff for will cut plugs off, its just not worth the aggro.


Utter balls.

Phone a manufacturer and ask them.

Urban myth gone mad that's roosted in some company's (mis)conceptions. And then gets passed from contractor to contractor from job to job. Like STDs going round halls of residence, only nicer.

-------------------------
S George
http://www.sg-electrical.com
 07 November 2012 07:53 PM
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peteTLM

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Originally posted by: stateit

Originally posted by: peteTLM



As OMS says, there is going to be trouble with the warranty in cutting the plug off. No kitchen firm i/we do stuff for will cut plugs off, its just not worth the aggro.




Utter balls.



Phone a manufacturer and ask them.



Urban myth gone mad that's roosted in some company's (mis)conceptions. And then gets passed from contractor to contractor from job to job. Like STDs going round halls of residence, only nicer.



Haha, suits me though. Plugging in a nice plug rather than crawling around in a cupboard trying to terminate in a flex outlet!

Does mean however that a unskilled person can swap the washing machine on a plug rather than having to terminate something............

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----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 07 November 2012 08:12 PM
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mikejumper

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Originally posted by: benspark
They was keen to have a couple banks of double grid switches for the appliances to cut down on FCU's, so I have done as they asked and terminated at a 1g 13amp outlet per appliance.
Ben

Why bother with all this gridswitch / FCU business?
Unless the outlet needs to be fused down what's the point.
Why not just go direct to every socket and for anything that needs 3 or 5 amp fuses put on FCU's.
 07 November 2012 09:11 PM
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alancapon

Posts: 5790
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Originally posted by: stateit
Originally posted by: peteTLM
As OMS says, there is going to be trouble with the warranty in cutting the plug off. No kitchen firm i/we do stuff for will cut plugs off, its just not worth the aggro.

Utter balls.

Phone a manufacturer and ask them. . . .

I suspect that if you do, they will confirm this. Most installers / repairers of white goods are not covered for working on fixed wiring. This means that the removal of an appliance for repair / replacement will also need an electrician to carry out the disconnection & reconnection. The guarantee will usually not cover this. Some manufacturers state that you can cut the plug off, but only to replace it with a plug that is suitable for the installation it will be connected to. This usually does not include an FCU!

Regards,

Alan.
 08 November 2012 07:29 AM
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JZN

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Just finished a kitchen last week. Tall Beko fridge/freezer came without a plug. I'd put a socket in the next unit for it. Customer called Beko and they said they don't provide one for built in appliances as the fitters tend to cut them off as there's not room to push the appliance back if the socket is directly behind the fridge.

John
 08 November 2012 04:26 PM
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stateit

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Originally posted by: alancapon


I suspect that if you do, they will confirm this. Most installers / repairers of white goods are not covered for working on fixed wiring. This means that the removal of an appliance for repair / replacement will also need an electrician to carry out the disconnection & reconnection. The guarantee will usually not cover this. Some manufacturers state that you can cut the plug off, but only to replace it with a plug that is suitable for the installation it will be connected to. This usually does not include an FCU!


Regards,

Alan.


I've just phoned Hotpoint/Indesit Help Desk and they said 'No Problem'

As long as it's wired correctly it will not invalidate the warranty.

URBAN MYTH DEBUNKED

[edit] They even said the customer could do it themselves without voiding the warranty. [/edit]

-------------------------
S George
http://www.sg-electrical.com

Edited: 08 November 2012 at 04:33 PM by stateit
 09 November 2012 07:23 AM
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ebee

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I think you`ve just confirmed what I`ve always said.

Purely removing a plugtop and say replacing it with another or wiring to an FCU , providing done correctly of course, would not invalidate any guarantee either from the manufacturer or the supplier.

However, making it more difficult to test by virtue of that fact could well cause problems to any reasonable service staff so best avoided.

The easy answer for them to give is not to remove it because you might well invalidate the warranty is guite understandable even if not strictly true and you might have to be prepared to go to court to get satisfaction. So it would certainly be less hassle not to remove the manufactures plugtop anyway.

If my customer insists I remove it I always advice them of these possible outcomes before reluctantly doing so and usually the decide not to.

My preferred method is to make a big cutout with a circular holesaw in the side of the unit and pass the plugtop thru it then replace the cut out portion (with a flex sized hole on the circumference ) then silicone it back in place. Makes a neat job hidden from view but easy to dismantle later and withdraw the plug and flex. Easy, simple, no future hassle

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Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 09 November 2012 11:32 AM
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BigRed

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Here's an interesting fix for this, use the fittings that they use on desks to put plugs through, just use the ones that click inti place and haven't just got a disk. Very neat.
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