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Topic Title: 2391
Topic Summary: recent exams
Created On: 08 September 2012 12:07 PM
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 08 September 2012 12:07 PM
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Zs

Posts: 2629
Joined: 20 July 2006

Good morning,

I'm going round to begin helping a fellow electrician prepare for his 2391 tomorrow and I'm digging out some past paper questions for him.

My old questions are very old. Bit like me these days. Do you know if the format has changed any and what kind of things they are leaning toward lately?

He's managed to get on one of the last sittings of the classic 2391, in about 6 weeks' time and is very capable and very good at the maths/science but is not native English so there is a language barrier (Hungarian). We plan on trawling through GN3 to make sure he has a full understanding of the text, and highlighting some key sections.

If you have been a 2391er lately any pointers would be much appreciated.

I'm thinking we should concentrate on the amendments such as electromagnetic and the newer requirements and new sections of GN3 such as sample testing. What do you think? He deserves this and is very committed to becoming as well respected here as he was in Hungary where he ran a commercial installation company and got royally shafted to the tune of about 40K.

I'll be sad and happy to lose the inspection business which I do for him.

thank you

Zs
 09 September 2012 11:46 AM
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Zs

Posts: 2629
Joined: 20 July 2006

Thank you very much for the pm's. I didn't know that nowadays you have to fill the answers in on the actual paper. If the spaces are small I'd fall at the first post on account of big writing. You are quite right, the second language of English will have to add a third - C&Glish. It is going to be tricky for him so this afternoon I'll go round with my old 2391 study notes and make sure that Robert understands terms such as IPXXB and Earth Fault Loop impedance Path etc. We can have a look at the definitions too because they used to feature in question 1, things like competent person etc. So there's enough to be getting on with.

I'll aslo mention to him that he may be able to get extra time in the exam, which one of you has pointed out. I'll leave tht to him to sort out though.

No, I don't mind giving up the time to this Man. If his work was rubbish or he was a cash in hand type of worker I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole. I've had a great deal of help along the way Mine at a lovely high level from the likes of OMS ,JP ,BOD and more. I'm not blind to the amount of time other people have invested in my career. This is just time to do the same for the next one and then one day he'll do it for another.

Thanks for the lovely conversational private mails.

Zs
 09 September 2012 06:31 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: Zs

You are quite right, the second language of English will have to add a third - C&Glish.



Hi Zs, I agree with your thought above, you have to have a certain mentality to deal with C+Gs, I was lucky enough to take my 2391 soon after all my other exams so was still in the 'exam speak zone'. My advice is to know lots about what you do understand, and don't worry too much about those bits you don't - they come later, just getting the exam passed is the important bit, skip any question you don't know, do all the questions you know well then if you have spare time go back and try to blag a few extra marks with some waffle!- I never did get those phasor diagrams in college, perhaps now a few years on if i had a go I might understand them!
 08 December 2012 05:24 PM
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Zs

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Joined: 20 July 2006

Hello, I have just had a text from my mentee that he passed the last sitting of the 2391.

So, it was worth it and I thank you for your input, mostly via pm.

If a Hungarian can pull this one out of the hat in a second language, good show. Really grateful to you all. He worked hard in preparation and completed the paper with 15 minutes to spare. I can't offer you that and I always use every minute offered.

So... 2391 is in the bag for this man and well done he. I am a touch surprised and it gives me small but real cause for concern. Only because I have recently seen a total disregard fo the regs from him and a poor EL system. I think it deflates the value of my 2391, to me. So who didn't pass it? Why? I really hope you all did well.

Zs
 08 December 2012 07:10 PM
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peteTLM

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Originally posted by: Zs

Hello, I have just had a text from my mentee that he passed the last sitting of the 2391.



So, it was worth it and I thank you for your input, mostly via pm.



If a Hungarian can pull this one out of the hat in a second language, good show. Really grateful to you all. He worked hard in preparation and completed the paper with 15 minutes to spare. I can't offer you that and I always use every minute offered.



So... 2391 is in the bag for this man and well done he. I am a touch surprised and it gives me small but real cause for concern. Only because I have recently seen a total disregard fo the regs from him and a poor EL system. I think it deflates the value of my 2391, to me. So who didn't pass it? Why? I really hope you all did well.


Zs


did i meet aforementioned person at the place whose name ends in D?

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Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 08 December 2012 10:29 PM
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tillie

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HI Zs , I am completely bewildered by your post , if I have read this correctly then you have championed this man and seen to it that he passes his 2391 and then you questioned the fact that he passed.

Have I missed something ?

Regards
 09 December 2012 02:09 PM
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Zs

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You are quite right Tillie, and it isn't a mood-swing. I've just not told you what has been going on since then. Difficult to explain and I'm cautious not to offend so will go gently . The poor installation of the ELs which I have mentioned on here is since tuition. First bad thing I have seen, and a couple of others have come to light since.

A switch screwed onto the side of a metal Disribution Board with sharp screws? a bank of switches about to be mounted likewise onto the side of a 400A TPN control panel? No idea that it is not a good idea to install like that. But finding a 2391 easy.

I don't get it either tillie. 10 weeks' ago I would not have voiced any concern whatsoever. Perhaps it is just a single quirky case.

Nonetheless, with no prior attention to testing or to the regulations, afternoons at my table, 5 days at a college which he found easy, and one of the most difficult exams we sit passed. Highlighted regs learned by heart. Sour grapes maybe since I found 2391 hard and have always revered 2391ers.

I suppose I am just worried. Like a mother hen watching the chicks leave the nest. I'm genuinely confused by my reaction too and beating myself up about it. Something about accidentally teaching someone what doesn't matter instead of what does matter? I think I did just that.

Yes Pete.

Zs

Edited: 09 December 2012 at 02:17 PM by Zs
 09 December 2012 04:28 PM
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Jobbo

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"I can't offer you that and I always use every minute offered"

Any sensible person does, I'm the same. Finish the paper than go over and over again, you can always add something and double check your answer.

I can see what your saying now, I was a little confused also from your post, I've been similar situations myself.

People that say they find exams hard, are those who want to get everything 100% right , so worry a little.

Does anyone think the 2391 has got easier over the years? Looking at example papers, it appears it has.

Jobbo
 09 December 2012 08:15 PM
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daveparry1

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I done mine about six years ago, didn't find it particularly difficult although I did run a bit short of time. In fact, speaking to some of the other blokes afterwards I realised i'd missed some questions, they were on the back of one of the papers! I was therefore quite surprised when I received the pass letter!
 09 December 2012 08:35 PM
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B67BU

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Originally posted by: Jobbo

Does anyone think the 2391 has got easier over the years? Looking at example papers, it appears it has.
Jobbo


No its not got easier i think the opposite,and i have done EVERY single one since the first one and will be doing the one in March lol. Just like yourself also done loads and loads of 2400,every 2391-20 and all three 2396;s
It's all about time and effort,also just like passing your driving test,just because you passed doesn't make you a good driver.

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Why don't you rock down to Electric Avenue (Birmingham B6 7BU) And then we'll take you higher.

B67BU@ElectricalTraining.co.uk



Edited: 09 December 2012 at 09:09 PM by B67BU
 09 December 2012 08:57 PM
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Jobbo

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"It's all about time and effort,also just like passing your driving test,just because you passed does'nt make you a good driver."

Agree with that statement 100% (you should see my mrs reverse park)

Holding a 2391 doesn't automatically make you a 'test engineer' as some will believe
 09 December 2012 09:16 PM
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B67BU

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Originally posted by: Jobbo

"It's all about time and effort,also just like passing your driving test,just because you passed does'nt make you a good driver."



Agree with that statement 100% (you should see my mrs reverse park)



Holding a 2391 doesn't automatically make you a 'test engineer' as some will believe


Also holding a 2396 doesn't automatically make you a
"Design Engineer" It's just the start and the rest comes with time and experience.

-------------------------
Why don't you rock down to Electric Avenue (Birmingham B6 7BU) And then we'll take you higher.

B67BU@ElectricalTraining.co.uk

 09 December 2012 09:26 PM
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Jobbo

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Agreed. Getting into a good position within a company and gaining experience in different areas in the industry is key.
 10 December 2012 12:54 PM
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OMS

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I suppose I am just worried. Like a mother hen watching the chicks leave the nest. I'm genuinely confused by my reaction too and beating myself up about it. Something about accidentally teaching someone what doesn't matter instead of what does matter? I think I did just that.


Nope - you didn't - think of it this way - as apprentices we are taught to use the correct tools for the job, you understand what a hacksaw is for, what a hammer is for and what a screwdriver is for.

That knowledge however doesn't stop electricians using a hacksaw to notch joists and using the hammer and screwdriver to bash out the offending bit of wood - it doesn't stop people using hammers to put in screws (Birmingham style - ). If he didn't get that kind of training, or an opportunity to learn it from others from the ground up, then it might just be a case of "but I didn't know" - and if you don't know, you don't recognise the problem - so don't ask - the "unknown, unknowns" as it were

I suspect you helped provide the knowledge and skill to pass the exam - what the candidate chooses to do with it afterwards doesn't diminish the exam or your effort - does it ?

Give him a bollocking about the Em/Ltg and the crap practice of using bloody self tappers to fix kit to other kit. (and remind him that fault levels at big switchgear may well exceed the withstand of "small" kit being fixed to it) - remind him it's not acceptable on your watch, and most importantly, why - he'll either shape up or he won't.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 10 December 2012 01:16 PM
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vesuvius

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Originally posted by: Jobbo

"I can't offer you that and I always use every minute offered"



Any sensible person does, I'm the same. Finish the paper than go over and over again, you can always add something and double check your answer.



I can see what your saying now, I was a little confused also from your post, I've been similar situations myself.



People that say they find exams hard, are those who want to get everything 100% right , so worry a little.



Does anyone think the 2391 has got easier over the years? Looking at example papers, it appears it has.



Jobbo


From what ive seen in recent years i would tend to agree that the 2391 has got a little easier. That said i think its still an excellent qualification which helps to build good standards within the industry.

This type of course was introduced to raise standards, if its doing it job to get guys in a classroom learning then im all for it. with the introduction now of the 2394-5 with the online aspect of the examination you could argue its getting a little easier again, though still helping to imbed good practice.
 10 December 2012 01:24 PM
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BigRed

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it doesn't stop people using hammers to put in screws (Birmingham style - ).


oi!

:-)
 10 December 2012 01:26 PM
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B67BU

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Originally posted by: vesuvius

From what ive seen in recent years i would tend to agree that the 2391 has got a little easier. That said i think its still an excellent qualification which helps to build good standards within the industry.


The national pass rate for the 2391-301 October 2012 examination is as follows:

Exam series Pass rate 41(%) Fail rate 59(%)

Ours was 80%

-------------------------
Why don't you rock down to Electric Avenue (Birmingham B6 7BU) And then we'll take you higher.

B67BU@ElectricalTraining.co.uk

 10 December 2012 01:31 PM
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vesuvius

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Originally posted by: B67BU

Originally posted by: vesuvius









The national pass rate for the 2391-301 October 2012 examination is as follows:



Exam series Pass rate 41(%) Fail rate 59(%)



Ours was 80%


Are those values for the whole of the UK ? I think at one point the pass rate for the UK was around 25% so 41% is an improvement indeed.

That said though there still has to be a good difficulty aspect of the examination, it has a good name, if it was just a walk in the park it would of course loose all credibility. A previous poster hit the nail on the head for me, you only get out what you put in, hard work at home not just in the class and you will pass.
 10 December 2012 02:18 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: BigRed

it doesn't stop people using hammers to put in screws (Birmingham style - ).

oi!

:-)


What, what - it's all true I tell you

"Kipper Tie?"

"Thanks - two sugars and milk please"



regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option
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