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Topic Title: reqiurements for certification
Topic Summary: affiliations?
Created On: 01 August 2012 10:42 PM
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 01 August 2012 10:42 PM
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astubliffhacked

Posts: 112
Joined: 29 September 2005

a local builder wants me to test inspect and certify his electricians work,
i have my 2391 and 17th edition and in the main do testing most weeks but i'm not sure if i have to be a member of napit nic etc.
can anyone let me know?
 01 August 2012 10:54 PM
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daveparry1

Posts: 6201
Joined: 04 July 2007

You cannot certify someone elses work, inspect and test yes but you can only certify work you have done yourself,

Dave.
 01 August 2012 11:00 PM
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astubliffhacked

Posts: 112
Joined: 29 September 2005

so as a qualified superviser i cannot certify my companies jobs unless i have done all the install?
 01 August 2012 11:28 PM
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daveparry1

Posts: 6201
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In your original post you refered to "a local builder", now you're talking about your companies jobs?
 02 August 2012 10:52 AM
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jsa986

Posts: 472
Joined: 08 February 2011

You dont have to be registered by a scheme to provide ECIRs,

As mentioned you cant test other contractors work.

Im assuming we are talking domestic here? Commercial is different as its entirely possible to have different persons for design installation and inspection and testing of electrical installations

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 02 August 2012 11:07 AM
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OMS

Posts: 19662
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Im assuming we are talking domestic here? Commercial is different as its entirely possible to have different persons for design installation and inspection and testing of electrical installations


Actually, it's only the "rules" of the scheme providers try to prohibit it - even on domestics there is nothing stopping the use of a designer, installer and inspector arangement.

Regards

OMS

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 02 August 2012 11:35 AM
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Yooj

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From my perspective, if it were me being asked to do this, there are a number of things I would need to consider, which are:

- How well do you know the builder... I.e. would he throw you under the bus should there be issues down the line
- Will the installer be available when you do the testing
- Have you had a chance to talk about the install with the installer, so you can get a feel for whether he is competent in terms of the installation, and why he is unable to do the inspection and test
- Is the builder actually expecting you to notify the job via 'your scheme' to labc. This avoids any bun fights if this is assumed by the builder and you are not registered with a scheme

If you take full responsibility for the install and sign it all off, then how do you stand in terms of insurance etc, as this could be a grey area if anything goes wrong down the line

There is nothing stopping you as a minimum filling in the I&T section of the cert and letting the installer do the design and install parts. Though, make sure that you get the cert with the design and install sections already filled out first from the installer as this will give you an indication of their competence, and also will give you a basis for your I&T.

Finally, the grapevine has been indicating that the rules of signing off others works may well be relaxed... therefore, I would suggest that you make a judgement call, and if you are comfortable, then go ahead and do it, though weigh up the risk first.

Yooj
 02 August 2012 06:32 PM
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BigRed

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why can't his electrician test his own work....sounds like a bit of a cop out to me... *spurs jangling in the wind*
 02 August 2012 06:50 PM
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hifly

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when your builder buddy says "certify" dose he mean an instalation cert of a building regs cert?

I suspect its a building regs cert, which i believe can only be issued by the person/company who have done the work (if registered with a scheme) or building control.

if its an installation cert than you can test and sign the testing part of a 3 sig cert.

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 03 August 2012 01:31 PM
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jsa986

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Originally posted by: OMS




Actually, it's only the "rules" of the scheme providers try to prohibit it - even on domestics there is nothing stopping the use of a designer, installer and inspector arangement.



Regards

Thats interesting, OMS

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 03 August 2012 01:39 PM
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OMS

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Well - marginally interseting in the grand scheme of things.

lets say I design a block of flats - we have common parts and domestic dwellings - I'm not Part P registered in any shape or form - I don't need to be. Does that mean I can't sign an EIC as the designer ? - does it mean that the proncipal contractor can't employ different foirms for different bits of the install - and then get it all signed off at the end ?

Would it be any different for a housing estate where we designed say a Type 1, Type 2 and Type 3 house deployed in groups or hande configurations across the site

regards

OMS

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 03 August 2012 06:30 PM
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John Peckham

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I think there is some confusion about the difference between signing in the various places on an EIC and Notification. These are 2 different tasks.

There is no restriction on who signs the designer box on the form only that the designer signs it. That is very common for big jobs tendered out to contractors although often the designer is reluctant to sign and their arms have to be twisted to do so.

I know the NICEIC do not allow their logo to be used to issue EICs for other people's installation work as there is a warranty scheme for all their approved contractors work. I feel sure that the other schemes do the same.

In addition none of the Competent Persons schemes allow Notification of other people's work as they are not permitted to do so by the government department that authorises them to run the scheme.

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John Peckham

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 04 August 2012 01:17 AM
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Zs

Posts: 2901
Joined: 20 July 2006

Astubliff (please?),

If you complete a long installation certifcate and sign the installer box then you are effectively pretending that you did the work. If you sign the designer box then the same applies if you didn't design it. But to sign the inspection box is going to be the truth. Just get the designer and the installer to complete their boxes.

However, I refuse to take this route myself and will only ever issue an electrical installation condition report for anything which is not my own work. Local authority are fine with it and they know the score.

No, you don't have to be a member of a scheme to carry out inspection and testing work.

As for notifying...if this job has planning permission then the notification has been taken care of and you don't need to do that anyway. The work does need to be certificated and that should be an installation certificate completed by the installer. Local building control will tell you what they will accept ( mine practically accept numbers on the back of a fag packet so I doubt you will have a problem). Without Planning permission then it should be notified by the homeowner ( usually scheme members/installers do it on their behalf).

There are those who demand a registered electrician for inspection and testing work; the Church of England is an example. That is their policy but not a BS7671 requirement.

But I wonder why the installer cannot give at least some numbers realting to his own work? My inner devil is telling me to be sly and ask for his installation certificate for you to verify as an experienced professional. It might show up the reasons why he/she is not filling in his/her own forms. It's not rocket science.

Most important thing is to make sure that installation is safe don't you think? Which is why I want for you to do the inspection and not the installer.

Zs
 05 August 2012 08:32 PM
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davezawadi

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Joined: 26 June 2002

I see the problem as:
The installer should give an EIC signed by him (her Zs!) as the inspector / tester.
He (her) is then entirely responsible for the installations condition, and compliance with BS7671.
I then come to inspect the installation later, and find deviations / problems.
I see that the original inspector has not done the job properly so should be responsible for the reparations to get the installation to regs.
The scheme provider is not interested in the non compliance.
The only result is legal and expensive.
Nothing happens (the scheme provider doesn't care because they get the money every year anyway).

Where is the industry going???

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David
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