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Topic Title: PAT testing an electric shower
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Created On: 02 July 2012 10:55 PM
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 02 July 2012 10:55 PM
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Ben10

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An electric shower falls under the description of stationary equipment in the IEE Code of Practice for in service inspection and testing of electrical equipment,
but there is no reference anywhere in it to actually pat testing one. Should it be included in the pat test of a property?
 02 July 2012 11:14 PM
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daveparry1

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I don't think it should be Ben, it's fixed equipment. Would you pa test an immersion heater for instance?

Dave.
 02 July 2012 11:24 PM
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Pacific

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Depends what the customer wants testing, I usually do a visual at least on showers and immersions, having found an immersion with its cover missing on one occasion
 03 July 2012 02:28 AM
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Legh

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I wonder who takes responsibility for the loads and hard wired appliances attached to a fixed installation?
Inspection and Tester?
PA Tester?
Maintenance electrician?

Its not uncommon to PAT electric cookers for example but not an immersion heater or CH bolier. and then you have all those industrial machines, fire alarms, other types of alarm system, emergency lights,

I suspect it will depend on the experience of the inspector and the demarcation of types of equipment. So the limitation of inspection and testing needs to be agreed beforehand with the client

Legh

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 03 July 2012 10:02 AM
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jcm256

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From your post, it is clear that you are not testing in domestic premises. It is clear however that there is a requirement to inspect and test all types of electrical equipment in all work situations.

PUWER 1998 only applies to work equipment used by workers at work. This includes all work equipment (fixed, transportable or portable) connected to a source of electrical energy. PUWER does not apply to fixed installations in a building. The electrical safety of these installations is dealt with only by the Electricity at Work Regulations.

Would a shower, really be classed as work Equipment?


May not apply to you, but nowadays most PAT trained are the product of 1 day, or in some cases 4 hrs. Should such a person be removing fixed electrical connections from a shower or FSU in order to test?


http://www.pat-testing.info/legal.htm
 03 July 2012 01:23 PM
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Patnik

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I assumed the opposite - that Ben10 WAS testing in domestic premises, presumably for a landlord. Could be wrong though. I don't see that an electric shower is that different from a hard wired cooker and a property owner might well expect me to PAT that (though all he'd get is an in-situ visual and earth from me along with a note as to limited testing).

What I suspect happens is this sort of appliance falls through the gap between PAT and electrician doing PIR (or whatever). We have a load of 'gray areas' where I work and despite me regularly raising them they don't seem to get clarified.
 03 July 2012 01:59 PM
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MrP

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I can clarify as a Land Lord
I have a property in the UK that I let out.
I don't use a managing agent as such other than to find a tenant and agree the lease. A finder's fee

Each year they write to me regarding PAT testing the appliances in the tenanted property and the safety of the tenant and my legal requirement as a land lord, they offer to organise this service with a proper NI###C contractor at a cost of £X and was I aware of the number of accidents and fires involving electrical appliances.

I write back with a disclaimer stating that there is no legal requirement to pat test the equipment thank you very much
Wonder how many fall for this scam

MrP
 03 July 2012 03:06 PM
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AJJewsbury

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What I suspect happens is this sort of appliance falls through the gap between PAT and electrician doing PIR (or whatever). We have a load of 'gray areas' where I work and despite me regularly raising them they don't seem to get clarified.

Agreed.

Even in the GN 3 committee there was a lot of umming and erring when it was pointed out the CH control wiring (not just the boiler but all the wiring snaking through a typical house, thermostats, valves, wiring centres, manifold actuators, programmers etc) fell within the scope of BS 7671 and most of the standard tests couldn't really be applied.

- Andy.
 03 July 2012 05:47 PM
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Ben10

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Thanks for the feedback all.
Just to clarify, the pat testing i do is generaly for a letting agency in domestic. I never considered the shower before but while doing a city and guilds in PAT it came up about the requirement to test/ inspect all electrical equipment not just portable. This includes fixed equipment which could, i suppose, include showers.
Does anyone have NIC registration in PAT testing? I wonder what they say.

On another note.....mr P , your right, there is no legal requirement to PAT test the appliances in your rented property but you do have a duty of care to your tennant. If a fault occured with one of your appliances that resulted in injury/ fire you would be held liable due to the lack of regular inspections. Is it worth it for £30-£40 every year?
 03 July 2012 06:20 PM
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jcm256

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On another note.....mr P , your right, there is no legal requirement to PAT test the appliances in your rented property but you do have a duty of care to your tennant. If a fault occured with one of your appliances that resulted in injury/ fire you would be held liable due to the lack of regular inspections. Is it worth it for £30-£40 every year?
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Yes Ben, but on the other hand, if a fault occurred with one of the appliances that you tested that resulted in injury/ fire you would be held liable. I suppose as you said £30-£40 every year for the client to be covered by your insurance seems like good value.
 03 July 2012 06:37 PM
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JZN

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I'd be intereested in whether the above scenario has ever occurred. After all, a PA test or EICR is a snapshot in time, a bit like the MOT on a vehicle. A few weeks later after some abuse by a new tenant, that flex might well be damaged and exposing a live conductor. Just because it was inspected a few weeks before and passed does not necessarily make the tester or the owner liable.

I also do some testing for a landlord on five student lets. Each year I inspect and test his porable appliances (not the tenants). At the same time i look at the terminals on the water cylinder and take the lid off the showers to check for water ingress or overheated terminals. I only provide documents for the portable stuff. The others i just note as a visual check on the invoice.

At the same time i change all the batteries in the somke alarms and remove any dust (HMOs so hard wired detectors with batteries everywhere).

Jon
 03 July 2012 06:49 PM
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MrP

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Ben
I think I'll take that chance, all appliances in the tenanted property are less than 5years old all circuits have RCD protection and in all my years no fridge has jumped out on top of me or ambushed me
All the hand held stuff is supplied by the tenant

It's a scam but good luck to you buddy may it last we all have to make a crust

I think Reeds Rains charge £85 for a "proper electrician" to come in and check obviously the estate agent cream off their bit but you may want to look at your price

MrP
 03 July 2012 06:50 PM
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Patnik

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Originally posted by: jcm256

On another note.....mr P , your right, there is no legal requirement to PAT test the appliances in your rented property but you do have a duty of care to your tennant. If a fault occured with one of your appliances that resulted in injury/ fire you would be held liable due to the lack of regular inspections. Is it worth it for £30-£40 every year?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes Ben, but on the other hand, if a fault occurred with one of the appliances that you tested that resulted in injury/ fire you would be held liable. I suppose as you said £30-£40 every year for the client to be covered by your insurance seems like good value.


I don't think that's even vaguely true - Ben would only be liable if he was shown to be negligent on the balance of probabilities. Otherwise it would be the same as saying the sparks is liable for any electric fault in a house he'd PIRed. There's a huge difference between doing a routine check for obvious faults and assuming liability for unforeseeable faults.
 03 July 2012 07:21 PM
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kj scott

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 03 July 2012 08:48 PM
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peteTLM

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i can say with confidence that 80% of items with pat test labels on are not tested in the slightest. It would create more of a risk to have a muppett (er, sorry pat tester) dismantle the shower to perform the test, than rely on the hopefully qualified sparky who installed it judgement.

You would not want to test across a shower for insulation resistance. It might be ok to test earth leakage, but being that the shower is on an RCD to comply with the manufacturers instructions and therefore 7671, we would know what was happening in that department wouldnt we?
I certainly wouldnt want someone anywhere near a £300 mira sport with digital controls.

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 03 July 2012 09:05 PM
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Ben10

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Mr P......£ 85 ? I don't blame you for telling them to politely p@£s off.

JMC ....PAT test only as good as the day it's done. As long as I have done everything correctly no one is liable. Its basicly about everyone covering their back. Good old health and safety!
 03 July 2012 09:08 PM
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MrP

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It would be interesting how many on this forum if they rented a property and the managing agent informed them that they had to have all the appliances pat tested would comply with the agents wishes I bet not many if any at all
I think most believe it is a scam even the one who offer the service

My problem is and I have many that I have to employ the services of a badge holder to undertake EICR on the fixed wiring on the property as the agent will not accept one down loaded from this site and signed by me I have to employ a proper electrician with a badge and that makes interesting reading, full of numbers

but such is life

MrP
 05 January 2013 02:46 PM
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alanblaby

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Hmm, In-service Inspection & Testing of Electrical Equipment is not just for 'portable' equipment.

From the IEE code of conduct:
'What should be maintained. - ......other than the fixed installation, all electrical equipment... whether permanently connected or connected by a plug and socket outlet, should be inspected and tested with the recommendations contained in this code of practice."
The next page gives a few diagrams of equipment required to be inspected, among them are: Pillar drill, toilet hand dryer, fixed air-conditioning unit, washing machine and many other examples.
 05 January 2013 03:29 PM
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leckie

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As Alan has just said, the code of practice does not mention portable appliances in its title. It refers to electical equipment.

It depends on the clients requirements

If you were testing a HMO with appliances and fixed wiring to be included, I would would think that may include all the equipment including showers, boiler central heating wiring, etc.

If I were testing a shower circuit I would want to remove the shower unit cover and do a Zs reading at the unit and inspect the internal connections for signs of overheating, etc. If an immersion heater circuit I would want to remove the immersion heater cover and do the same.

If you were only carrying out an EICR the extent and limitations would have to be agreed with the client.

If you were carrying out a test of electrical equipment the equipment tested would be on a register.

None of its statutary but in the example I gave, a HMO, they require a licence from the local authority and they may not issue it without an EICR, etc.

When I've tested HMO's and rented properties one of the most common faults I have found is missing cpc's to hob's, ovens and shower units.

What you test is up to you and your client, but I feel a lot better testing the lot. Providing someones paying me
 05 January 2013 04:56 PM
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daveparry1

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None of its statutary
---------------
Agreed Leckie, that's why the only part of this thread that I answered was "is pat testing a legal requirement" to which I replied NO

Dave.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » PAT testing an electric shower

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