Tom

As for you learning about trees, well maybe its a good idea to branch out

Nick

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"be careful of what you write"

Hi Tom, for the past 20 years or so the only requirement for sockets that may supply equipment outdoors is that they must be 30 mA rcd protected - there is currently no requirement that they must be TT'd. There is also no regulatory restriction on the earthing arrangement used for outside lights.

Edit: see this past topic for all the puns but not much info:

http://www.theiet.org/forums/f...tid=205&threadid=38068

...... ....

Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).

OMG... OMG wot a link!!! Mind you... its good to have a lark sometimes!!

Well thanks WB!! That sounds sense... I will go with that... many thanks to you and all, even the BAD puns, and I'll try not to worry too much in the future, ( dont count on that tho!!! hahaha! ).

Thanks to you all!

regards....

Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).

--"there is no regulatory restriction on earthing arrangements for
outside lighting.

incorrect, under ESQCR the DNO can disconnect/not connect
any unsafe installation.

Hi... so whats the bottom line on that statement then? That the outside lighting and DSO has to be TT'd?

Thanks...

Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).

Poor Old Tom, I bet you wished you never asked.

The deliberately silly answers were bad enough but the serious replies are confusing too.


Look at all possible scenarios such as bits requiring bonding present/not present and likelihood of some touching two separately derived "earths" and possible RCD failure and possible use/misuse of loads, flexes, class1 or class 2 - all have their pros and cons.

I think, on balance, TTed and relying on RCD probably safest bet but if that RCD fails I`d look pretty silly and that failure rate might be as much as 7%

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Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik

hello ebee... well said my friend! What to bloody do...? If I had started the works from scratch it would be a different thing!

Problem is there so many good people on here with alternative ideas and also the regs can be read in certain ways too.... I know Alana right and I feel that Dave made a good point as well.... the thing is that I just want to do the right thing for this works... I was there today tidying up some really poorly fitted JBs and fixing new trannys in the ceiling... they paid £2.75 million for the house but dont want to spend anymore than a few hundred doing the works correctly I actually told the chap when I left to get another sparks point of view and I am thinking of just walking away.... you'll never believe what I found today.. I told the client what I felt was feeding the large pump in the pond... he said it couldnt be as it was there for more than five years and they, the previous owners, had children playing around the large pond... I felt it.... I knew it too... traced the 3 core 1.5mm SWA's / H all around the garden... and guess bloody what? From the split CCU ... the lighting side... ( no RCD ), yjru ran a 1.5mm T&E to a double gang switch... from there they stripped back the SWA, no gland etc... just exposed the 3 cores... taped them up and connected to the 2 gang switch... this runs out to the garden and I wont even go into how they fixed a waterproof box.... they ran loads of SWAs from that and one went from the last light, this is not a joke, straight to a 3" x 3" waterproof box that was FULL of water next to the pond.... flexed from the light, not SWA, to this 3" x 3" and then the flex from this went straight into the pond... really!! And the voltage? 240v!!!!! Straight to the pump... the pump has to be a 240v pump!! How about that?? I'll post another question tomorrow... too late now and yes ebee.. I do feel in a bit of a pickle!

regards...

Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).

230V pond pumps, immersed and supplied by rubber flex, are pretty standard I think. Likewise 230V to the pond-side (or often half buried in the wet mud) filter & UV light. They're commonly hard wired to a weather proof joint box rather than plugged into a socket. You can even get special pond distribution boards (a waterproof box with a few fuses & switches on it).
- Andy.

Tell you wot Tom - disconnect the bloody lot, tell the client they are going to die - and also tell them that they'll save a few polar bears and be able to enjoy the garden as it was intended

Job done !! -

Failing that, either convert the whole thing to TT - or just patch up the poor terminations, glanding, enclosures etc - make sure the RCD's are in place and just use the PME Earth - despite the doom and gloom merchants, problems with PME in the relatively short distances involved in a domestic garden are very few and far between. So much so, that there is no prohibition on plugging in an extension lead in the house PME socket and taking it up the garden to a class 1 appliance - your cement mixer for example - go figure!!

I recommend option 1 - but if they can't live without a pond pump and garden lights then so be it

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option

Hi Andy... the 3" x 3" waterproof box was laying in the weeds by the pond... and it was honestly full of water... the box wasnt fixed... the wiring is run off of the lighting circuit /mcb... theres no RCD in the wiring and the flex was looking very sad and old running straight in to the pond to the water!

regards... Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).

Hello OMS...

Thanks for the reply! I did ask him if I could disconnect the pump but they feel that as its there they want it running... completed most of the wiring problems in the house, ( oh... he insisted on my glueing the downlights in the kitchen that are drilled into the ceiling joists as if you remember I said that the sparks had cut off one of the side springs holding the fire rated fitting up... sod it... I just did that... bad a??? ), and he wanted me to just sort out the 2 gang switch feeding the outside lights and also the pond pump... he thought an hour or so. I told him that I need to fit a henley block as there are no spare ways.. CCU / incorporated RCD / 4" x4" metal box for glanding the SWA and connections... etc... he wasnt too impressed and asked me to leave it... I put phase tape all over the 2 gang switch and said do not turn it back on! I feel that I must be outta touch on pond pumps as I wudda thought that they would all be low voltage so you see I am not an expert on pond pumps either!

Great advise about the TT OMS... same as Alan and Daves comment could be validated in your post too. Well done Ebee.. You could see what was happening!

While I am here... as I was going to make a fresh post about this question so I'll do this in the next reply on here... keep things simple a?

Regards....

Tom

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).

Edited: 04 July 2012 at 10:45 AM by tomgunn

The other thing I wanted to ask was... the sparks have just run SWA's all over the garden... now I can understand this to a point as the roots of the trees would make a trench for the SWAs nigh on impossible! So; can you wire the garden lighting by just throwing SWAs all over the ground? The thing is when I shop at Sainsburys in north Cheam, Surrey... and then park and pop into the main road from their car park.... I walk along the path there and the path lighting, high posts along the path, are fed by SWAs just laying on top of the gravel beside the path.... often meant to have taken some pics and post them on here because I have not seen this before... is this acceptable?

Oh... and BTW... when I was foraging through the jungle there on the New Malden job and was following the SWAs laying on the ground I noticed some red phase tape around one section... looking closer, and yeah we all know what thats about, I could see the SWA was damaged to the side and they had just taped it up.... hahahaha! Wot a life a? Well done to part P though!!

Cheers my dears...

Tom and .. relaaaxxxxxxxxxxx....

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Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).

SWA doens't have to be buried - if it was clipped to a wall for example no-one would bat an eye. In general cables lying on a surface is OK as long as they're not likely to be disturbed/damaged. So a lot depends on the conditions... if it's across a flowerbed that's likely to be dug into and the cable could be obscured by leaves etc, then I'd say it was a problem. Likewise right next to a lawn where the blades of a lawnmower might catch it. Or where kids play and might have a tug at it to see where it goes.

- Andy.

Hello Andy... Thanks for that... the ones laying loose next to the path at Sainsburys cannot be right then as they could be ridden over by bikes and anyone could trip over them as they are not fixed in anyway and just curl all the way up the loooong pathway!!

The ones in the garden are hidden under the tress and large bushes growing around them... no way to fix them really!

Thanks.....

Tom

-------------------------
Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).

SWA's lying on the ground? - simple answer is "will it be damaged by reasonably forseeable actions"

In a domestic garden (excluding the fact the client is an idiot with a big sharp shovel) then swa lying on the ground is no risk at all and only a minor risk of damaging terminations by movement or tugging.

To put it into context, I've just wrapped up the design for some HV infrastructure upgarding in prepartion for a new development on a client site.(several new transformers etc to feed a facility)

It's the sort of site that has a big fence around it, with another fence inside that, and has a chap with a bloody great alsatian dog and a machine gun wandering around the place.

All the HV cables just lie on slim concrete "sleepers" on the surface - the chances of some ***** wandering off the "path" and touching them are pretty slim.

So SWA cables on the ground aren't a particular risk - only if some idiot is going to fiddle with or otherwise damage them. Eventually, the oversheath will degrade due to UV exposure - but we'll be in rocking chairs by then Tom.

regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option

Hi... thanks for that.. I think for future works along these lines I would actually set some angle iron / uni-strut in the ground and run some narrow tray work... and if they dont accept the extra costs I would rather walk away.

Thanks again for the input lads!!

regards....

Tom

-------------------------
Tom .... ( The TERMINATOR ).

handyTRADESMAN ... haha

Castle Builders

Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn't!

I can resist anything..... except temptation! ( Karl Gunn ).

Humm - what's the appendix 5 AG code for high velocity lumps of lead?
- Andy.

Trust you to pick that up - - let's go with AG3+

BS EN 60721 -3 - 3 and -3 - 4 gives a bit of guidance but the principal threats would be BR6 (7.62mm full jacketed long, non Nato round) and RPG rounds.

Distance gives a bit of protection (it's actually difficult to hit a cable lying on the ground from any distance, when you are at ground level - standing up on the fence line wouldn't be sensible !!) , but equally there is no demand on the electrical infrastructure (at that level) as part of any defense - ie it can fail without undue detriment to the facility.

In another place, for sure we would be burying it deep and providing "protection" to the HV and LV gear, transformers, cables and other associated bits.

It was just an example of where (perhaps at a more extreme level) cables lying on the grass is OK

regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option