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Topic Title: Grr - LABC changing goalposts
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Created On: 28 March 2012 04:51 PM
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 28 March 2012 04:51 PM
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djrichiet

Posts: 85
Joined: 23 April 2010

Ok - Most of my work has been commercial/industrial with the odd domestic job for friends etc (I dont advertise to do domestic work, just get asked because I'm trusted). Previously (up until late last year) when I contacted the council myself regarding the odd rewire they were more than happy with me just leaving the final certificate with the homeowner, and everything was fine. Im not part of any 'competent person' scheme... It would not be financially viable for me to do that for the small amount of domestic electrical work I get.

Now a couple of days ago I gets a call from building control regarding a recent rewire for a friend, asking why they havent received anything from a registered body, just a copy of the BS7671 certificate which I completed - to which I explained the previous arrangement. Their reply 'Oh we dont do that anymore' - My reply 'Well im certainly not going to go through all the rigmorol of spending £stupid to be registered with such a scheme' - I have now got to wait for a phone call from one of their 'registered contractors' to work out the next step. No doubt it boils down to money... and wouldnt surprise me if that was underhanded.

I have a full 4 year apprenticeship as an electrical engineer when I worked for the electricity board back in 1990-1995 (albeit on high voltage systems) - included all aspects of BS7671 electrical installation within our basic training, including inspection & testing (as we had to understand that to understand more advanced testing) - Got a nice calibrated Fluke 1652 machine - and yes I fill the certs out by hand.

Even upto the 1st amendment of the 17th edition, i take to it like a duck to water. Fully competent, its like 2nd nature to me. Maybe because im able to understand the fundementals of electricity... so basically - tacit knowledge and commen sense prevails. Never had any problem and in this day and age, dab hand at knowing how to spot fake cables, mcb's and such like.

Yet you can have some kid leave school do a 6 week crash course in domestic installation and be registered... without needing to know hardly any electrical theory, aslong as they follow a rule book they are fine?? sorry... off on a proper rant here lol!

I guess theres many other people in the same boat - What have your experiences been and what was the outcome? - and is it true they could be relaxing the rules of Part P..?


Apologies for the rant, this gets my back right up

Richie.

-------------------------
From SMD's to 132kV... ive had a go!

Richard Talmage, LCGI EngTech TMIET
 28 March 2012 05:02 PM
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SAMJAKE

Posts: 442
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Dont worry about it. The dreaded part p is currently under review.
The outcome will be a watered down version scheduled for 2013.
The so called scam providors are all having kittens (As suggested by RR) and he would know.
 28 March 2012 05:05 PM
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spinlondon

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I think you're about 6 or 7 years behind the times.
You're saying basically the same thing as was said then.
Apparently about 90% of the people who are in these schemes want Part P to stay.
Funny how no one I know was asked their opinion.
I had some trouble recently with my local Council.
I conducted a PIR for a landlord who wants to rent their property to the Council.
At first they would only accept a report from a member of the NICEIC or NAPIT, then it was from any of the schemes.This is despite the fact that Part P doesn't cover Inspection & Testing.
The landlord had to fork out £450 for a new board and PIR, as the old board was a Wylex BS3630 type.
 28 March 2012 05:07 PM
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AJJewsbury

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You don't have to be registered with a scheme - you can pre-notify (i.e. exactly how most builders deal with building regs). With most LAs the cost is the same for just about any bit of electrical work - so for an entire re-wire it's a bit less ridiculous than for an extra kitchen socket.

I guess the underlying point is that when a member of scheme issues a building regs certificate (sorry, I forget the exact term) they're certifying that they've complied with building regs - not just BS 7671 - i.e. any relevant bits of parts A-N as well as P - so some (not a lot, but some) knowledge that would be beyond a purely electrical background.

But, yes, I agree the whole thing is a pain in the butt. (I'm not a member of any scheme, but I'm renovating my own house...)

- Andy.
 28 March 2012 05:09 PM
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sparkingchip

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They have no changed the goal posts, they are just straightening them up.

It was never right that you did the work in the first place without being in a scheme or paying the LABC fees, the rules are the same for everyone whatever your back ground.

The council will be acting correctly if they now sort the issue out and charge you and/ or the client for doing so, which would be preferable to you being prosecuted wouldn't?
 28 March 2012 05:15 PM
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djrichiet

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Hopefully the outcome will be fine, the problem with the overly-oficious lot is that they fail to realise BS7671 is not legally compliant... EAWR 1989 is - and you need to have common sense and decent understanding of electricity to comply with EAWR 1989. Correct me if im wrong though. Just need some ammunition just in case :-)

-------------------------
From SMD's to 132kV... ive had a go!

Richard Talmage, LCGI EngTech TMIET
 28 March 2012 05:17 PM
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djrichiet

Posts: 85
Joined: 23 April 2010

As for being prosecuted, Im all up for a court case... I remember taking paypal to court and winning.... albeit a civil issue David and Goliath comes to mind!

-------------------------
From SMD's to 132kV... ive had a go!

Richard Talmage, LCGI EngTech TMIET
 28 March 2012 05:22 PM
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spinlondon

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It wouldn't be the installer who would be prosecuted.
It's up to the house holder or person ordering the work to ensure compliance with Building Regulations.
 28 March 2012 05:27 PM
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sparkingchip

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It sounds to me that you know enough to know you are in the wrong and you just want to have a swipe at the system
 28 March 2012 05:29 PM
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rocknroll

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and is it true they could be relaxing the rules of Part P..?


Across all groups, departments and right across Government there are people looking at ways to relieve the regulatory and financial burden on businesses and customers and Part P is one of those things that is in the mix.

Briefly the Part P proposals as of 1700 hrs today mean that both registered and non-registered competent persons and their customers will be able to compete on an equal basis which in my opinion is proportionate and fair.

Before the rumour mongers take control I would like to point out that the consultation closes on the 27th April and any de-regulatory changes will not come into force until April 2013 with further ammendments to be announced in Oct 2013 so there is some way to go yet.

As an aside from this I have today received information listing the businesses that will not longer be subject to pro-active inspection and enforcement and that includes farms, further information has come to light relating to annual licencing which could become a bi-annual or tri-annual affair so the de-regulation train has left the station.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 28 March 2012 05:31 PM
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djrichiet

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Ive never been in the wrong, as previously mentioned, the council have always been happy with myself just leaving the original certificate with the homeowner - this was right upto last year (2011).... now without warning... this! lol

-------------------------
From SMD's to 132kV... ive had a go!

Richard Talmage, LCGI EngTech TMIET
 28 March 2012 05:38 PM
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sparkingchip

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You have always been wrong, now it could have been that you were tipped the wink by someone at the council that they would turn a blind eye, however all sorts of things could have happened. There could have been a change of staff, there could have been a inspection of systems showing correct procedures have not been followed, who knows? It could be anybodies guess without talking to them.

It doesn't mean that if the council now want to do it by the book they can't, the question is how far back can they go and pick you up on?

Andy
 28 March 2012 06:32 PM
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sparkiemike

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only 427 people have signed the epetition

http://electrical.theiet.org/b...nsultation-2011-12.cfm
 28 March 2012 06:43 PM
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daveparry1

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If you have the amount of experience you're claiming (and i'm not doubting that) you must have known that you were not following the correct procedure? it's been in place for quite a few years now. Part P has been around a long time!

Dave.
 28 March 2012 06:48 PM
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sparkingchip

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I did the air ambulance VAT refund on fuel petition as well while I was there.

Andy
 28 March 2012 07:03 PM
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djrichiet

Posts: 85
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Is there a petition to abolish/amend part p because i will happily sign that one

-------------------------
From SMD's to 132kV... ive had a go!

Richard Talmage, LCGI EngTech TMIET
 28 March 2012 07:15 PM
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daveparry1

Posts: 6325
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Why not just follow the correct procedure instead of hopeing for a change in the law? And yes I do mean the law because although BS7671 isn't statutory part P of the building regulations is,

Dave.
 28 March 2012 07:18 PM
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sparkingchip

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"Briefly the Part P proposals as of 1700 hrs today mean that both registered and non-registered competent persons and their customers will be able to compete on an equal basis which in my opinion is proportionate and fair."

How could that be done unless everyone pays the same fee regardless of whether registered or not to LABC who would then have to police it? Or total abolition. Either way it is likely to end up being a dogs breakfast is politicians organise it.

Andy
 28 March 2012 07:30 PM
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mikejumper

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Originally posted by: djrichiet
......What have your experiences been and what was the outcome?
Richie.

The last time I used BC to notify, nobody came out to inspect 1st fix.
An office bod from BC came out to 'inspect' 2nd fix, admitting to my customer he had no knowledge or experience of electrical installation.
I asked my customer how long he'd been here, about 5 minutes she said (for a complete rewire). So no opening up and testing of anything then.
I was a bit concerned about this so I spoke to BC the next day to check that a completion cert would now be sent to my customer. 'Send us the test cert along with your qualifications and we can sign it off' was the response.
So I did.
£200, thanks very much.
 28 March 2012 07:53 PM
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sparkingchip

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Which if you only do a couple of rewires a year, to top up another source of income, is cheaper than joining a scheme, so value for money!

Andy
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Grr - LABC changing goalposts

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