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Topic Title: 2396-2012 PROJECT
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Created On: 17 March 2012 04:41 PM
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 28 May 2012 02:37 PM
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John Peckham

Posts: 7459
Joined: 23 April 2005

OMS

I agree about doing shortest, longest etc however the C&G instructions are," Determine for each circuit........." The word "each" is in bold. You also have to determine for each circuit the minimum CSA for the CPC, thermal constraints and Zs values.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 28 May 2012 03:33 PM
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OMS

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Agreed John - you can however, "determine" by "inference".

My point being that BS 7671 doesn't usually require absolute values - only comparative values.

ie Ib<In<It
Vd < declared %
Zs <Max Zs

S > minimum determined by adiabatic expression or selection.

So, having calculated the above for say a lighting circuit, the rest of the circuits can be shown to comply by comparision - ie they have a lighter load or are shorter or both - ie you don't need an absolute number, just that it is compliant.

Have you never seen >299Mohms on a test form before

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 28 May 2012 04:04 PM
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jcm256

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The first floor reminds me of a larger real life installation; (stock room) where the sparks at request of the manager fitted ceiling switches for each row of lights, as he only wanted staff to switch on the row or on single lights as required. Cord pull struck one member of staff in eye, long cord nearly strangled one other, goods got tangled on the cords, black enamel supporting the fittings screwed to hollow roof beams with wood screws (not raw bolts) pulled out of the ceiling. So it would be better to stick to standard simple design and not try and do something smart. Only one floor so it would not be a room less lift where the main isolator and separate supply for the lift consumer unit would be in the lift shaft. Machine room could be at either the first floor or ground floor or basement depending on type of lift. Well not really, hydraulic pump room can be one floor up. More information needed from other specialist installers.

http://www.cityandguilds.com/d...ECT_DRAWING.pdf



following are example of submissions , showing tables created to list the circuit specifications, the distribution board arrangements and the lighting circuits designed by the candidate.

Yes very good, lot of work there, would not like to undertake this myself, but the creaked neck not so good.


http://www.technicaltrainingso...ation-design-350.shtml
 29 May 2012 04:00 PM
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TonyM58

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Hi gents

Just wondering where all these 'deadlines' come from, i am not aware of any C&G imposed deadlines for this project?

Are they being imposed by your individual colleges? And one wonders what happens if you dont submit on time? Do they fail you? and if so, against what criteria?
 29 May 2012 04:56 PM
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Jobbo

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We have until end of August and I'm guessing that's just the college issuing that date. I guess if they didn't set any deadline, some wouldn't get the motivation to finish it. I'm just sitting on the drawings now, need to mark up my final copies (I hate marking drawings by hand )
 29 May 2012 06:50 PM
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misterben

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Hi all,

Is the course you are talking about the replacement for the old C course? If so what is the deadline? am i missing something, are we all supposed to be doing this course?

thanks
Misterben
 29 May 2012 10:39 PM
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Jobbo

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No nothing like the C course, that was actually an intense 2 years. This is just 4 and a bit days, so bearly even a course, so you need to be up to speed with electrical science and regulations. Sadly the majority of our class wasn't, hence why they all failed. As the exam was very hard, given the time scale, it was quite an achievement for some of us

I would advise anyone thinking of undertaking the course, to choose a training provider with a suitably qualified tutor.
 29 May 2012 10:47 PM
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John Peckham

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I am going for the see one,do one and teach one method. I have asked my college if I can run a 2396 this September.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 29 May 2012 10:52 PM
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Jobbo

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John do you mean see one done wrong, so do one right!

P.S what I sent over today was less than 5% of circuits. Value for money!
 30 May 2012 02:44 PM
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TonyM58

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Problem is of course........who trains the trainer? Have you sat a course yet John? and did you 'know' who you were getting trained by?
 30 May 2012 02:55 PM
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TonyM58

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Also, just checked with the Guilds, the 2396, unlike all of the other quals, has a registration 'life' of 12 months, everything else (including the old 2391-20) is 36 months, so i guess that if you were to, say, pass the written exam, you would have a limited amount of time in which to submit your project. Plus of course, normal registrations close 7th of the month, the month before the exam, so those sitting the june written exam would have been registered by 07 May at the latest, and thats when their '12 month' clock would have started ticking from...

and thats assuming, of course, that their training providers/colleges registered them and booked their exam on the same day..........

everyday is a school day, as they say.......
 30 May 2012 06:45 PM
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John Peckham

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TonyM58

Yes I have done the 2396 exam and passed and I am now doing the project. At my college you have to have the qualification before you can teach it, which is a bit chicken and egg as the exam myself and Jobbo (and Zs) did was the first ever 2396. I could have just done the exam at my college but we have no one who could have assessed me on the project.

I will write my own course material over the summer and produce my handouts if I get the go ahead to run it.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 31 May 2012 02:01 PM
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TonyM58

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And thats my point John! I agree that only people who hold the qual should teach it/assess it

but who trains the trainer? who has assessed the chap that is assessing yours?
 31 May 2012 02:09 PM
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OMS

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City and Guilds I guess ?

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 31 May 2012 02:44 PM
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TonyM58

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Dont know......there is no requirement to hold the qualification, tutors must only be 'technically competent' and have 'relevant experience'. There is no 'master' answer sheet(s) for this, (how could there be) and really, unless there is a glaring design error (32A type B protecting a 2.5mm tw&e radial, for a simple example) who can say that a project 'passes' or 'fails'; two projects, particularly accross different tutors/assessors could vary greatly in detail, content, presentation etc and because there is no precise criteria to assess them against, could both pass. If I, as the designer, decides to use cables x, y or z, and run them in routes 1, 2 or 3 then who is to say that is 'wrong'?

so in answer to my question 'who trains the trainer' - the answer is no-one

Unless C&G ran 'train the trainer' sessions for this qual, and then this was then cascaded down to training providers, then there is no bench mark as to what exactly is required, and really its a bit of a free for all, if it meets the (very loose) criteria laid down by C&G, then it will pass.

Unless we went to centrally marked assignments of course........
 31 May 2012 02:48 PM
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OMS

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Well, all that meets the iterative and subjective nature of dsign in reality i guess.

as long as the person marking it is competent, what's the problem ?

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 31 May 2012 03:28 PM
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Jobbo

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I don't suppose anyone has taken the time to transfer the drawing to CAD have they?
 31 May 2012 03:48 PM
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OMS

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KISS

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 31 May 2012 08:12 PM
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johnboy6083

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I transferred the 2391-20 downtown fire station to CAD. It was a good excuse to learn how to use it.
 31 May 2012 09:50 PM
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peteTLM

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Originally posted by: misterben

Hi all,



Is the course you are talking about the replacement for the old C course? I



thanks

Misterben


I believe the replacement for the c course is now CG 4467

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Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
IET » Wiring and the regulations » 2396-2012 PROJECT

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