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Topic Title: WHERE HAVE ALL THE TEACHERS GONE? Topic Summary: As opposed to the lack of work thread. Created On: 07 March 2012 09:54 PM Status: Post and Reply |
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 07 July 2012 11:29 AM
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depea - "there is a thriving small scale engineering industry still alive and well. You would be suprised how many small units are working 7 days a week turning out bits which get exported all over the place."
In the 70's my uncle worked for a small engineering company. They bought some special machines to harden the bores of racing engines. Over the years, the staff retired, the machines then broken up. He went to the USA to train them how to use the machines, it turned out they couldn't produce the same quality because they hadn't the patience. (all hand controlled - yes a computer program was developed, but the brain/eye/hand combination won every time. They gave up and he returned to the UK and tried to teach someone here to take over. By this time he was 70+. The American manufacturers scrapped all the machines and he bought just one of the remaining ones. Last year, his boss retired, the firm closed and the 3 phase machine bought home. Not having 3 phase, he 'borrowed' a small workshop with suitable supply and managed to complete all the outstanding orders. So we have a 80 year old who had a world beating process, but unable to find anyone to take it over. The current process used, is nothing like as good (F1 engines now only last about 3 races - he made them go at least double the number) and he still gets asked to produce some hardened tools and engine sleeves, but has to turn everything down. I think the machine is back in the garden shed at the other end of my road. Interesting world, ain't it? ------------------------- Norman |
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07 July 2012 04:57 PM
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Norm,
Unfortunately, your uncle has designed a non-transportable (pardon the pun) system that would require specifically skilled labour, which is likely to be expensive. To my mind, a manufacturing process that is fully transferable would require non-skilled or at best semi-skilled operatives to make it profitable. A bit like electrical installation operatives......... Legh ------------------------- Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships? http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk "Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections." |
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07 July 2012 07:12 PM
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Too late John - government policy over the last 20 years or so has conspired to see anyone with engineering skills as an "oily rag" - compare it to say Germany over the last few decades. The time bomb is now quietly exploding - we simply do not have enough people left with the skills and abilities needed to recover from this - even if there was a political will to do so These are two very scary paragraphs indeed! We aren't training people now so where will they come from in the future? Whilst at the desk on my part time engineering job this week I took a call which was a delicate attempt at poaching me in order to work direct and full time for the government department for whom we work. A responsible position and not without risk. Kind of thing you sell your soul to and quickly find yourself without a real life. The offer was £37k. It was an encouraging accolade but very easy to say no. I was polite enough to avoid saying 'your 'avin' a giraffe' and settled for thank you. Overseas primarily - shipped in by what's left of the major construction players and then they'll settle here and fill the jobs we can't. That said, of course we also have the people who have retrained in later life - many of whom bring a lot of skill and knowledge to the business. That's a very interesting comment OMS, as one of the late(r) in life retrained into electrics. It is a subject for a different thread sometime but from the electrician turned electrical engineer standpoint; What I take to the desk is a working knowledge of what it is like to work on the installations I am now designing. Something you can only learn by doing it for a few years. Also, a few hard learned sums and formulae which anyone can learn in a few days if they apply themselves. I was employed for knowing the sums and I find my unseen value is in what is going on in my head behind the sums, but they don't know that. I'd recommend that electrical engineers be trained in electrical installation and maintenance and that electrical installers working on specified large installs be trained in the engineering design process. The former being the most important. ------------------------- 'The desk is a dangerous place from which to view the world.' John Le Carre |
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07 July 2012 07:37 PM
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Zs. In most posts you hint at your new position 3 days a week.
Looking past many posts its not like you were a spark working on large switch boards, pulling in large diameter swa, glanding in 100's of cables, working out glanding arrangements for these, in a hole jointing 400 mm swas etc etc You were/ are a domestic spark doing a little commercial and industrial much of the design, being already done in an on site book. You are correct that many engineers dont appreciate being on the tools, and the benefits it gives. I am in no way belittling you or any spark that does domestics. But calm down a bit. |
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07 July 2012 08:48 PM
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(Own selves to blame or tight-fisted heads of colleges).Why is Technical colleges not running the 2357 courses instead of leaving that to individual training providers.
Some (sort half are) like the City of Westminster, but one shown is 2365. Electrical Engineering training courses at North Glasgow College for example only run 17th Edition Wiring Regulations CG 2382-10 http://www.hotcourses.com/uk-c...ited+Kingdom/page.htm Is this true. In order to meet demand for apprenticeships, further education colleges are increasingly subcontracting work to private training firms. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17564251 |
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07 July 2012 10:50 PM
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Too late John - government policy over the last 20 years or so has conspired to see anyone with engineering skills as an "oily rag" - compare it to say Germany over the last few decades. The time bomb is now quietly exploding - we simply do not have enough people left with the skills and abilities needed to recover from this - even if there was a political will to do so These are two very scary paragraphs indeed! We aren't training people now so where will they come from in the future? Whilst at the desk on my part time engineering job this week I took a call which was a delicate attempt at poaching me in order to work direct and full time for the government department for whom we work. A responsible position and not without risk. Kind of thing you sell your soul to and quickly find yourself without a real life. The offer was £37k. It was an encouraging accolade but very easy to say no. I was polite enough to avoid saying 'your 'avin' a giraffe' and settled for thank you. Overseas primarily - shipped in by what's left of the major construction players and then they'll settle here and fill the jobs we can't. That said, of course we also have the people who have retrained in later life - many of whom bring a lot of skill and knowledge to the business. That's a very interesting comment OMS, as one of the late(r) in life retrained into electrics. It is a subject for a different thread sometime but from the electrician turned electrical engineer standpoint; What I take to the desk is a working knowledge of what it is like to work on the installations I am now designing. Something you can only learn by doing it for a few years. Also, a few hard learned sums and formulae which anyone can learn in a few days if they apply themselves. I was employed for knowing the sums and I find my unseen value is in what is going on in my head behind the sums, but they don't know that. I'd recommend that electrical engineers be trained in electrical installation and maintenance and that electrical installers working on specified large installs be trained in the engineering design process. The former being the most important. Zs Not everyone makes the transition from one to the other easily. Sometimes people should stick to what they are good at; I know plenty of very good electricians who would make poor designers/engineers if they came off the tools and many good design engineers who should never go near the tools. Generally people tend to rise to their own level of incompetence. |
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08 July 2012 09:58 AM
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FM, you are quite right. On the tools I deal with domestic and small industrial. As an inspector I deal right up to the massive 10 day inspections. It is not belittling and I would happily argue that modern domestic is demanding more knowledge than a basic industrial installation. Fault finding a domestic can be much more demanding than the same in an industrial unit.
But when you get to a desk and begin working with 600A cut outs and multiple three phase installations, the physics and the process are exactly the same, just the numbers are higher. What are we being asked to do? What is it for? who is going to be using it and how? Sure a panel comes in at £26k instead of £100, and you get more desparate reps on the phone looking to be specified for it, but the principles are the same. And when it is being installed the electrician still needs lights to see as he works, room to pull a hacksaw back and forth, a working height which is not crouching half way between standing and sitting for hours, and so on. The end result needs to be functional and, IMHO, pleasing. As big as it is, I still find myself sitting on an imaginary upside down bucket having tea with the installers and imagining what they are going to complain about in terms of the design. Only when you've been stuck half way between standing and sitting for hours with no room to cut the end off a bit of trunking do you learn to look out for that. Neil, the Peter Priciple? It's about where I am now but I'm at the bottom of the food chain so not a great risk to the nation at the moment. Zs ------------------------- 'The desk is a dangerous place from which to view the world.' John Le Carre Edited: 08 July 2012 at 10:15 AM by Zs |
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09 July 2012 09:54 AM
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That does sound a very good way into the trade. after spending to many years with academia I personally found although I knew a lot I had almost no practical experience to actually get the job done. Having the option of actually learning and more importantly, being good at a trade it retrospect would have been much more sensible.
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09 July 2012 01:07 PM
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I was a spark before I turned engineer - and I did all of the above and more - and in most cases, it's just labouring. You don't need to have physically grunted and sweated pulling in big SWA's - you just need to understand that they have weight (mass) and bending radii. I have designers sitting near me that are about 8 stone soaking wet and have bumps in thier jumpers - a metre or so of transformer unloading tails probably weighs more than them - that doesn't mean they aren't bloody good designers operating in some pretty demanding and specialist sectors of electrical engineering. Regards OMS ------------------------- Failure is always an option |
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09 July 2012 05:30 PM
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Fault finding a domestic can be much more demanding than the same in an industrial unit. Have to disagree there. 
Regards |
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09 July 2012 06:18 PM
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Fault finding a domestic can be much more demanding than the same in an industrial unit. Have to disagree there.
Regards Circuit by circuit, I suspect there's not much in it - and industrial units tend to have slightly less of the DIY about them, so it's probable that they have been "hacked about" just that little less than the domestic installs subject to attack by the Polish Brigade. When you get into the equipment then for sure it gets more complex - but most electricians don't fault find the domestic TV or washing machine either - so comparing apples with apples I would suggest that some domestic circuit faults tend to be a bugger to track down due to the "environment" and the lack of control, coupled with the probable installation methods Regards OMS ------------------------- Failure is always an option |
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09 July 2012 06:52 PM
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Oms
I agree with your earlier comments, regarding the work, i was pointing out that wasnt Zs background. Did you get her the interview? |
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09 July 2012 08:04 PM
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Circuit by circuit, I suspect there's not much in it - and industrial units tend to have slightly less of the DIY about them, so it's probable that they have been "hacked about" just that little less than the domestic installs subject to attack by the Polish Brigade. Domestic distribution circuits are so much easier to work on, they are not so physically demanding from all aspects - diurnal cycles on shift work, unpleasant environments, pressure on production interruptions and physical extents!  Also, domestics, don't have a monopoly on the riders of the range! 
This is where experience kicks in for anyone faultfinding, domestic circuits are simple and more localised, where the most difficult is the F.R.C.!
Appliances?, a different ball game, fault finding here is a challenge, whether a domestic or industrial electrician; but the industrial type, usually has the advantage in being more au fait with motors, discrete controls, electronics, SCADA, D.C.S's. and P.L.C.'s. 
Regards |
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09 July 2012 08:54 PM
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Oms I agree with your earlier comments, regarding the work, i was pointing out that wasnt Zs background. Did you get her the interview? I guess it's no ones background on the day they start - as I said, it's more important to understand the process of design, the objectives, constraints etc - putting it in is (sometimes) an advantage - but not always - trust me I've done both - an sometimes you end up designing something that you feel comfortable with becuase you've had to install it in a previous life. I think Zs got the interview herself Regards OMS ------------------------- Failure is always an option |
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09 July 2012 10:05 PM
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OMS, I think that Zs has a very valid point in her statement that practical experience is necessary for the development of good engineers.
If you have had a practical back ground I am surprised that you could think otherwise; as for the 8 stone engineers with bumps under their shirts, one of the best engineers, if not the best I have ever worked with, or for, was a woman; but then she also had experience on the tools. How ever good they may seem give them real hands on experience and they will be better. Moving back to the original post, one of the major failings of the training sector is lack of practical experience, for both the trainers and their trainees. ------------------------- http://www.niceic.biz |
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10 July 2012 09:24 AM
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OMS, I think that Zs has a very valid point in her statement that practical experience is necessary for the development of good engineers. I agree K, but i was simply pointing out that it's not essential in the formation of engineers. I think you have to recognize that the process of design (particularly for building services) addresses the needs of the building, the occupants, the process or the wider environment - it's not just about the nitty gritty detail of putting in big cables and terminating them, nor is it about the simple calculations we use to show a cable is compliant with BS 7671 - it's about thinking through the energy flows into and out of a space, understanding the space implications of containment, understanding the requirements of the users, constraints of the budgets or the building form etc etc - most of therse are things that having once been on the tools don't actually help ypou with - indeed, sometimes they are a hinderance - because you lapse back into "we always do it this way" rather than thinking through the problem. So - engineers with practical experience are good, but in many cases not better than other engineers - they have most value in perhaps the later stages of design, where the focus is on constructability, coordination, procurement etc - for the greater part of the "design" cycle, having heaved a few big armoureds into place or bent miles of galv tube isn't a huge advantage - other than perhaps to give you a bit of street cred with the boys on site - you can chew the fat and talk the slang even if you do rock up in a suit and a new white safety helemet - even if you do have to do a few upward back of the bend conduit tricks just to prove it If you have had a practical back ground I am surprised that you could think otherwise; Well, as I said above - a good practical background is useful, but not essential - and it adds most value when design strategy and concepts are already in place and you are focused on the mill drill detail of cable calcs, schedules etc and heading into a delivery of the design package. At earlier stages of design, personally I would rather have engineers who think through such things as how aspects of the design are given resilience, elegance and functionality. For example, I want the right kind of though process going on for lighting controls from someone who understands what the aspirations of teh building user really are - what I dont want is the electrician mentality of banging in danlers PIR's in primary classrooms without appropriate additional controls so when the blinds come down and the whiteboard is in use, the teacher can actually turn off the lights, despite the fact that the photocell is calling and the PIR is activated by the kids hopping about - I'm sure you'll have seen just that scenario. Equally, i want the "outside the box" thinking that puts an IDS overide into the lighting controllers that brings on external lighting, that's off at curfew if the alarms go off out of hours - in recognition that the principal key holder is the single girl in accounts who lives close and gets called out when the alarms go off - that's design, not S= square root I2t over K - that's calculation as for the 8 stone engineers with bumps under their shirts, one of the best engineers, if not the best I have ever worked with, or for, was a woman; but then she also had experience on the tools. for sure Keith, my point though was not if they have bumps in the jumpers or not - just that they understand design - and you don't need to have sweated your ***** off hauling in 300mm2 4 cores to understand "design" How ever good they may seem give them real hands on experience and they will be better. In general, yes - all experience is good experience - but they tend to be better at detailing etc because they have put 20 armoureds into a switchboard section gland plate and know that if teh centres and lay are incorrect it's almost impossible to tighten the glands - but as I said, that's a level of detail that exists almost at the very end of the design process - in fact, it could be argued that it's the contractors problem anyway - subject to the designer having recocognises the probale space and bending radii required and making that provision in the early stages of design (arguing with the architect of plant space allocation for example in the face of pretty tough nett to gross GIA area ratios Moving back to the original post, one of the major failings of the training sector is lack of practical experience, for both the trainers and their trainees. Indeed - but my earlier posts about putting this on a proper commercial footing and leaving the private sector sort it out are very valid - I'd be quite happy to teach people from leaving school right through to leaving university - both technically and practically if required - but when front line consultancy pays more than the local college, then market forces dictate that academia gets what it pays for - and it doesn't pay much This could be sorted out - but it's 20 years too late and will cost too much money for there to be any political will to do it - it's a bit lik compiling databases - everybody want's something out of it - no one is prepared to put anything into it !! Regards OMS ------------------------- Failure is always an option |
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10 July 2012 07:54 PM
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I have been teaching and assessing young 2330 students for the past 2 days. I have been using old fashioned teaching methods and giving some "non -compliant" students a hard time. Guess what after the initial culture shock the majority of them started to perform and take an interest. I had to teach safe isolation, live voltage and current testing, how a fluorescent fittings works, a bit on power factor and power factor correction and then in to the workshop to put the theory in to practice. In the past the lecturer had demonstrated the tasks and the students wrote down the results as it was considered to dangerous to allow the students to do the testing.
I had made up a test rig with a fluorescent with conductors brought out to 13A sockets with plugs drilled out for probe insertion. Also one of my 2391 practice rigs for the 3 phase testing. Each student did all the tasks well with very little coaching from me. They have all passed and subject to handing in their written scripts for marking tomorrow some may get credits or distinctions. They all went home tonight with a well done from me and feeling pleased with themselves having achieved something meaning full. The thing that saddened me is that only 4 out of 27 had jobs and the rest would like to get a job doing anything leading to becoming a sparks. A few of them I do not think have the aptitude or motivation to make a sparks but the majority do, all they lack is the opportunity and some old fart like me to give them a verbal kick up the a**e and the occasional well done! ------------------------- John Peckham http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/ |
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11 July 2012 12:34 PM
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Must agree John,
old school, chalk and talk, no hats, no hoodies. Show some respect, show you know what you're on about and gain some respect. On the DTLLS teaching qualification they rant on about the needs and learning styles and all the psychology on and on and on. The fact is you can't teach someone to be a good teacher. You either can or you can't. You don't need to be the one who knows it all and have a teaching degree, you just need to be able to pass on what you do know. To be able to do that in a way which motivates and involves your students is a lot harder than knowing that students learn best when they are warm and well fed. That is just bleeding obvious isn't it. Can you tell I'm not a fan of FE teacher education? 
Ah well, back to the marking, Marc |
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11 July 2012 06:47 PM
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Marc
I am certainly not doing it for the money as I could have earned a lot more money and paid a lot less tax if I had been working for myself for the 3 days this week. I am trying hard to get theses students, 2 classes of teenagers and 2 classes of adults, through their 2330 assessments. One lad turned up for 0900 and I saw him sit down in the classroom. I was handing out some handouts and looked around and saw he had gone. I asked the lad sitting next to him where he had gone and he said (I am not making this up)," He has gone to do his hair".When this lad breezed back in he did get a talking to from me with lots of strong words about, are you sure you are in the right class or should you be in hair and beauty? I strongly believe that not only should be giving them a technical education but also preparing them for the world of work. That means turning up on time, not playing with your phone when you should be working, getting back from tea break on time, paying attention and doing what you are told, taking an interest and showing a bit of interest in the job. One lad turned up late for class on Monday an hour late and got sent away by me to come back today at 0900. He turned up at 0940 and got sent away until 1300 this afternoon to do his assessment with a severe bo**ocking from me. He was a very unhappy bunny having to wait around until 1300. In the classroom he was suitably sheepish and in the workshop doing his practical with me assessing him he did a good job. I told him he had done a good job and passed his assessment and told him I wanted to see him on my Inspection and Testing course in 2 years time followed by lots of expletives on what would happen to him if he turned up late for those classes. He thanked me a went away with a big smile on his face. So yes Marc all those mamby pamby modern teaching methods don't work as evidenced by the kids leaving school and colleges with loads of paper qualifications (everybody gets a certificate regardless of performance) but lacking the social skills to get a job. I think I have done my level best to give these students some skills and give them a better chance of getting a job although the opportunities are few and far between. I feel rather sad about the future for these young people who just want a job. ------------------------- John Peckham http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/ |
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11 July 2012 07:29 PM
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Well, as a non teacher, but with some experience of teaching technical subjects for HNC/HND part time and also teaching and mentoring engineers under my wing, I'm going to disagree with the two of you on this.
I went through the hard school of training - right first time, on time, every time was the watchword and it was accompanied with quite brutal discipline - both from the teachers and the guys out on site. From there I went into practice where you were just cannon fodder to be used and abused in order to get work out to impossible deadlines. There were only two guys who had a different style - one was an engineer turned tutor in tech - he encouraged me to think around problems, answer different questions to the ones asked and gently guided me through a learning process that suited me and the way my mind worked (or didn't more like it). I wasn't known as "Dreamy Daniel" for nothing, I needed the occasional shove to get a bit of direction back but all in all benefited from a tutor who had the sense to let me get through problems the way I wanted to. The rest of the tutors just bludgeoned me into doing things thier way - and I can be a right stubborn sod - so it really was a war of attrition. I hated them and every minute I had to be there, but i did recognise that there would be an end to it and then I could go my own way. The second guy was the principal engineer I went to work for - he was a hard nosed ***** who ran the place with an iron grip - I saw grown men leave his office trembling after a bollocking from the boss for cocking something up - so junior engineers were easy meat for him. It took six months of abuse, piles of late nights and some pretty brutal working conditions before I snapped - and it wasn't pretty. When I calmed down, he smiled, offered me a drink from his bottom drawer and said "I wondered when you were going to blow - you took a lot longer than I expected". He then went on to tell me that what he wanted was people that were willing to bring a different idea or a different solution to the design problems - and then set me a fairly simple design task in a foolscap hard case site book. He did this every day for about 2 years - every day I gave him my solution to yesterdays problem - no right or wrong - just my solution. I learned more from that guy in two years than I ever had anywhere else at any time So this isn't about iron discipline v namby pamby teaching methods - it's about seeing that one size doesn't fit all. For sure use a bit of discipline to break down entrenched ideas - but after that you need to find the teaching that suits individuals best - otherwise they wont develop - and more importantly won't know how to develop. At the end of the day teaching should be about enabling individuals to learn, and perhaps most importantly to go on learning. Of course, all of that takes time, cost and effort - which is in short supply all round at the moment I guess Regards OMS ------------------------- Failure is always an option |
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