LoL - very well done, Griff -

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option

The problems in FE have nothing to do with the state or private sector issues. I have had sufficient dealings with private colleges to know that they have the same troubles as state FE. In fact, state FE has the same competative controls as any private college has. Funding comes from the same places and a class can only exist if it is properly funded.

No, the problem is, as has adequetly been evidenced here, all about market forces. Insufficient remuneration results in lack of staff. Simples.

Edited: 13 March 2012 at 11:28 PM by TCSC

Having had recent experience of being a student of a private training provider I was very un-impressed and that was having paid a lot of money £800 for 5 days of tuition which we did not get. I was offered a job by the owner of the company when I complained and I know that they were paying £250 a day to the tutor we had so I could have probably got a bit more.

I spoke to my boss at the college and said we would have to offer more than £30K a year to get the right sort of person to do the job and he said we could not even pay that to start. I said there had to be some sort of mechanism to pay more to attract some talent but no.

So we now have no full time staff with the last full time lecturer has resigned, just me part time on the books and 2 agency part timers.
I am going to do an extra night next term delivering the 17th as the full time lecturer used to do that. The 2 agency guys are very good but it does not bode well for the future.

We are told we have to pay bankers and others in the financial sector good money to attract and retain them but the same rules do not apply to the public sector.

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John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/

So, now you're in a pickle !
As the only salaried part timer, (a fractional contract, no doubt) you will probably be expected to pick up all the administration for the Electrical department, which includes writing the specifications and leaflets for each course for marketing, initial assessments, record keeping and monitoring, handling SPOCs, development projects, SAR's for each course the department runs, endless planning meetings with MIS, head of school, budgeting, ordering of materials, health and safety reports, risk assessments, student reports, letters to parents....the list goes on.
and then there is keeping control of the practical elements of the courses, which would have been traditionally given to the technician.

You may, if you're lucky, get the opportunity to practice some teaching and don't even attempt to answer the phone while doing 2391 practical assessments.

But then there is the weekend to do your lesson preparation, up date your notes, lesson materials for the next round of courses.

Legh

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Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."

You should have come to the Award Winning Training Provider

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Why don't you rock down to Electric Avenue (Birmingham B6 7BU) And then we'll take you higher.

B67BU@ElectricalTraining.co.uk

No pressure then?

I'd be a bit careful about saying things like that B67, until the results come out. The more I think about what I wrote on the recent 2396 paper, the more depleted I become.

And then the examiners' report; who pays for that? I predict that it is going to say bad things about the candidates' knowledge for anything in at least questions 8-10 because it was like a race, not a test of ability. If so, it will not be a true reflection.

Undergoing private sector teaching is a priveledge for a few of us. Most rely on the public sector and it is a shame to hear that it is in such a big mess. JP, you are going to be burdened by what is happening at your college because you will take ownership of the problem purely by dint of being a nice bloke who cares. The problem is, when the teachers take action such as going on strike they are ridiculed and the day is treated like an extra holiday by those on the receiving end. Those of us who are not waiting for a teacher to turn up are not affected, so the day goes un-noticed other than the Today programme as the alarm goes off.

Big mess and big shame.

Zs

Where have all the teachers gone?. Simple, the demographic time bomb has just exploded, we've known for a long time that a lot of the decent sparks are approaching retirement age and that goes for sparkie teachers too. At the college where I work, some have already left and more will be leaving this year. The curriculum doesn't help either, years out of date and largely irrelevant to the workplace many students will be entering. (thank you Summit Skills).

Maybe, Professional Technicians is the way to go for Colleges of further and higher education, (well someone will have to teach these half a million Technicians). The short back yard courses may have replaced some of the Technical College's courses where traditionally nearly all electricians were educated through Technical colleges. A 5-day course can get you a prestige title of Government Approved Electrician so what is the point of doing 2 or 3 years at a Technical College.

This is from the Engineering Council News Today.

">http://www.professiona...hni.....6.03.12.pdf


http://www.professional-techni...k/pdf/Case_studies.pdf

Edited: 27 March 2012 at 09:00 AM by jcm256

It get worse folks I am now the only person on the books (part time) plus one agency bloke who is doing his best but is overwhelmed. I was asked by my boss, the head of construction, to help out and do some teaching and assessing for the 2330 students. I have done this evening and have 3 full days next week. When I was being briefed what to do my head of department (construction) mentioned in passing that he had resigned, a really good bloke and a great pity to loose him.

So that's it then just me until my bosses replacement arrives, non electrical like my current boss. Oh I forgot to mention we have one technician left to share with plumbing and brickwork. He is very helpful but is a carpenter by trade left over from the carpentry department that closed some years ago and is the last surviving technician after the numerous cost cutting culls.

It seems the colleges are being set up to fail whilst the private providers do not have the scrutiny and restrictions placed on them.

I know one of the other local colleges has closed their electrical department and another is much reduced.

Permission for bottom lip to wobble sir?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/

I guess John, you are now at the zenith (nadir) of where further education has gone since the eighties - generally at thier own behest

I've made really good money over the years redesigning schemes for colleges who had just taken control of thier own budgets - it was the colleges themselves that were giving me a brief to rip out workshops and construction faculties and replace them with hairdressing salons and media labs.

As an apprentice trained spark and a lifetime of employment in engineering it appaled and saddened me to watch many hundreds of m2 of workshops being gutted - the machinery being skipped just for scrap value and being replaced by suspended ceilings, miles of dado trunking and new desks.

There is something about watching screw cutting myford's and milling machines being smashed for scrap that says more than just the immediate loss - it signalled the end of engineering in the UK, and set us on the path of becoming a consuming rather than a manufacturing society - with all the implications that has.

So - colleges did this to themselves, with a lot of help from the quangoes (Summit Skills et al) - still, not to worry, all is not lost - as things pick up, we can always buy in the skills we need from China, India and eastern Europe. There'll always be someone willing and able to put in an extra socket John



Too late John - government policy over the last 20 years or so has conspired to see anyone with engineering skills as an "oily rag" - compare it to say Germany over the last few decades.

The time bomb is now quietly exploding - we simply do not have enough people left with the skills and abilities needed to recover from this - even if there was a political will to do so

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option

Never a truer word spoken - some of the looks we used to get from the office staff just because we had to wear overalls as we were in an engineering environment. And when the odd 'suit' did come in to ask for advice on his home wiring the reply from him after the advice was given was nearly always " yeah - I thought so I was just checking"
Even now where I am the only electrician on site I sometimes just get refered to as 'maintenance man'.

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Empty barrels make the most noise.

You don't need time served sparks, when we've got the brilliant part P system!

Nevermind, the government will save us all and the planet with the green deal.

Regards

These are two very scary paragraphs indeed! We aren't training people now so where will they come from in the future?

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http://www.electricalqualifications.co.uk
http://www.electricalexams.co.uk
http://www.electricalrevision.co.uk

Like OMS suggests India, China etc.

I don't like the look of the training on the links provided either. "No Experience Needed. High Earnings Re Train As An Electrician Here"

Regards

Overseas primarily - shipped in by what's left of the major construction players and then they'll settle here and fill the jobs we can't.

We may see some improvement (marginal) as UK manufacturing returns from China as costs rise (and UK sinks deeper in debt pushing down wages) - but that will be short term and quite probably when the manufacturing returns we'll bring skilled maintenance techs back with the work from overseas.

I think it was JP who said a while back that those lads with a good chance of solid maths, physiscs etc O levels that would have been apprentices a generation back are now groomed for University degrees - what apprenticships that exist are now filed by peoiple with far more mediocre quals.

That said, of course we also have the people who have retrained in later life - many of whom bring a lot of skill and knowledge to the business.

As I said, take a look at Germany - in almost every company, the senior management of today werer apprentices in that company 20 - 30 years ago - they know thier business from the shop floor up - and are determined to keep investing in the next generation of home grown engineers.

You might be suprised to learn that something like 60% (or more) of engineering graduates are not involved in engineering within 5 years of qualification

Too late I'm afraid to do anything other than start again - and for sure there ain't the money or the will to do that - cheaper to import the skills we need

regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option

I served my apprenticeship and spent many years as a maintenance spark at a very large engineering/manufacturing company in the West Midlands. It once employed tens of thousands direct with many times that in the supply network. Sadly its no longer there.

In the late 80s my particular place of work had a complete overhaul and new plc/cnc controlled machinery was purchased. None of it British made and most of it from Germany. The old machinery (some of it 30-40 years old) was sold off to companies from developing countries such as India, China and Eastern Europe. As part of the sales deal they sent some of their operatives to be trained up by our operatives on how to run the machines.

As we all know there is now a skills gap in this country with regard to engineering skills. If we ever decide that we once again would like to become a manufacturing country what will we do?

It will have turned full circle and we will be the developing country. We will need to send our work force to places such as India, China and Eastern Europe to be trained in basic engineering skills.

Having said that I do (amongst other things) occasionally help a friend out with cnc repairs and there is a thriving small scale engineering industry still alive and well. You would be suprised how many small units are working 7 days a week turning out bits which get exported all over the place. The problem is this is small scale and most of the employees are old boys. The younger generation need to be encouraged to enter this type of employment because we know what will happen once all the old boys have gone.

Edited: 06 July 2012 at 04:55 PM by deapea

The price you pay for a C&G course is generally around a quarter of what it costs to train you, courses are heavily subsidised and means tested so there is big reliance on participating colleges, industry and the government to fund the programs, colleges are now being relied on more as funding is drying up a bit now especially from the various participating industries.

This has forced a lot of the colleges who are becoming more and more autonomous to look at alternatives and no longer support the C&G programs, as one principal pointed out a while ago a C&G student brings in £480 a term and pre-university programs such as foundation courses and Level 5 programs bring in £3000 plus a term so it becomes a matter of economics.

C&G level 1 to 3 are primarily aimed at the 16 to 19 age group and introduction into the sixth form curriculum has slowly started in some areas so as colleges have the need to balance their books and look for more lucrative alternatives we could see a resurgence of the C&G programs within the school structure.

Obviously for adult trainees who benefit from the cheaper alternative of using a college rather than their local training providers this will be a blow but you never know schools may cash in on the large numbers of mature learners as some do already.

regards

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"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
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"Oh! The drama of it all."
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"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
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Edited: 06 July 2012 at 08:27 PM by rocknroll

Whereas the C&G short courses 2382, 2391 are not subsidised and can earn the college, training centre upwards of £8000 in less than a week.

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http://www.niceic.biz

I think the writing is on the wall, but it's not all doom and gloom

In Scotland (from April 2012) ALL Scottish Government funded contracts over £100k MUST have an apprenticeship / training system in place as a condition of the contract.

This has been implemented as Scottish government policy afte someone suggested that it be made a condition of goverment contracts ran through the Scottish Government
(my only claim to fame- I suggested this on a local ITV question time programme in May 2011)

The Scottish government have made this a condition of Scottish Government contracts and also a condition of a grant from Scottish Enterprise.

In Scotland SECTT are currently reviewing the apprenticeship training programme (I have heard this through the grapevine)

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baldelectrician.com

No RnR the C&G courses for adults are what as known as Full Cost courses. As it says on the tin the students have to pay the full cost of the course there is no subsidy.

I was up in Oxford earlier this year and I was told that courses at a particular college cost £45K for 3 X 8 week terms. The student pays £9K in installments at some later date maybe and the tax payer pays the £36K balance on demand.

So is this good value for money for the tax payer to pay for students to do arts courses or would the money be better spent for students to do technical courses that would build /re-build our infrastructure and promote manufacturing?

If you are already a tax payer working all day and contributing to the national pot and want to do and evening course to improve yourself there is no subsidy for you!

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John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/