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Topic Title: what the hell is green deal??
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Created On: 09 December 2011 05:47 PM
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 10 December 2011 05:05 PM
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sparkingchip

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Definitely a glass half full man aren't you Roger! You can see the upside in the Green Deal.

Andy
 10 December 2011 06:07 PM
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rogersmith7671

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Yes Andy i do, subject (of course)to the final scheme specifications. circa Q1-Q2,2012. large company's need large profit margins, it's what makes e'm big, but it also makes them vulnerable when the market shrinks and the supply is plentiful.

Regards
 10 December 2011 06:28 PM
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alancapon

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip
You could end up with a tenant who moves several times in a short space of time ordering work to be carried out on the flat they move into leaving after six months with a outstanding charge to be recovered off the electric bill for the next twenty five years, when at the moment they cannot even paint the walls pink!

This has some possibly interesting legal complications. Can a tennant spend a landlords money without their permission? Should the debt incurred follow the tennant/occupier/owner rather than staying with the property?

Regards,

Alan.
 10 December 2011 06:48 PM
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sparkingchip

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From the DECC guidance:

In the domestic sector, we are proposing
powers to require landlords to honour
reasonable requests from their tenants for
energy efficiency improvements, where financial
support is available so there are no upfront
costs to the landlord. We also intend to enable
local authorities to insist landlords of the
worst performing properties make all energy
efficiency improvements for which there is
financial support available, such as Green Deal
or ECO. Our intention is that this local authority
action would be focussed on landlords owning
properties with an EPC rating of F or G.
 10 December 2011 07:34 PM
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jcm256

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O YEAH: WHO PAYS AGAIN AND AGAIN, THE POOR CASH COWS,THAT'S WHO PAY.

WHEN WILL I HAVE TO START PAYMENTS ON MY GREEN DEAL?
The Green Deal Provider will inform the customer's electricity company about their Green Deal Plan, so the Plan instalments can start to be collected through their electricity bill. The energy supplier will then write to the new Green Deal Plan customer confirming the Plan details and notifying them of when they will start to collect Plan instalments through the electricity bill. Customers will be free to continue paying their electricity bill via the same method and frequency as before they entered into a Green Deal plan.

WHAT HAPPENS IF PEOPLE HAVE DIFFICULTY PAYING THEIR ELECTRICITY BILL WHEN A GREEN DEAL CHARGE IS ADDED?
The Green Deal is designed so that the estimated energy bill savings should not be less than the Green Deal Plan instalments, so there should be no reason for people to fall into arrears because of the Green Deal. In addition, consumers are already protected through obligations on energy companies to treat people fairly when they fall into arrears and these will extend to Green Deal payments.

WHO TAKES OUT THE GREEN DEAL - THE LANDLORD OR THE TENANT?
It could be either. However, tenants will not be able to attach a Green Deal to a rental property without the consent of their landlord. In reverse, the landlord will need to gain the consent of a sitting tenant in order to attach the Green Deal charge to their electricity bill. We imagine that landlords will take advantage of void periods to take out the Green Deal (when they tend to undertake their normal cycles of improvement).

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT ENERGY TARIFFS AVAILABLE IN THE NON-DOMESTIC SECTOR, HOW WILL YOU ENSURE THIS IS TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT TO PROVIDE ACCURATE SAVINGS ESTIMATES?
The Green Deal provider will have the flexibility to adjust the savings estimate produced by the generalist assessment - which will include only a representation of the business's marginal fuel tariff(s) or a default value - to take account of the individual tariff of the business. The savings figure can only be adjusted by mutual consent.

http://www.stroma.com/files/li...%20Deal%20Brochure.pdf
 10 December 2011 08:08 PM
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sparkingchip

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Here's a little gem from DECC:

To assist Green Deal providers in marketing
their services to potential customers, we are
proposing to make freely available the details of
the 5.5 million properties that currently have an
Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) together
with information about the energy efficiency of
the property and recommended improvements

Edit-
Still reading the guidance through, however when the work is completed the EPC will have to be updated and will become the disclosure document. So if in future you are buying or renting a property you will need to read the EPC to check whether there is a Green deal charge on the property.

Edited: 10 December 2011 at 09:58 PM by sparkingchip
 10 December 2011 08:40 PM
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FizzleBang

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Oh deary me.
I thought EPC's had died a well deserved death. So now they've contrived another use for them.

And as with all Green schemes this one will be just another money spinner for the big boys.

Meanwhile the poor victims will be luck save enough energy to heat one extra bath per year - if they realise any bnenefit at all....

-------------------------
"I learned very early the difference between knowing
the name of something and knowing something". - Richard P. Feynman
 10 December 2011 08:47 PM
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sparkingchip

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Yep! People selling or renting out properties have had to pay for a EPC and now they are to be used as a Green Deal sales tool.

I have finished reading the CECC guidance through and I cannot see how having £10,000 worth of work carried out will not add £70-120 per month for ten to twenty five years to the properties electric bill based on a 7.5% interest rate, there will have to be some major savings, FIT and RHI payments to offset this.

Andy

Edited: 10 December 2011 at 10:43 PM by sparkingchip
 10 December 2011 10:54 PM
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sparkingchip

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I have just checked and at present I am paying £83 per month direct debit for electric and gas, I think I paid around £118 last year resulting in an over payment and a reduced amount this year, so if you average it over a couple of years then it would be around £100 so I would need it to come down to less than £ 30 combined gas and electric allowing for savings, Fit and RHI payments, that would be pretty amazing for a house built in the1960's!


Andy
 11 December 2011 08:09 PM
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sparkingchip

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The only "grant" money I can see going into the Green deal is from the Electricity Companies Obligation ECO, which I assume is the money paying for the cheap insulation 4 rolls for the price of 1 deals in the DIY stores. The rest of the money has to be borrowed at a commercial interest rate with a early repayment penalties and to smooth the path small businesses will not have the benefit of protection from the Consumer Credit act that they would normally have.


Then there is the question if the property becomes empty without any one living in it to pay the bill, will the debt recollection be postponed until new occupants move in? A housing association with a large number of void properties could become liable for large amounts in repayments, though if they as landlords ordered the work in the first place that may actually be fair. Could it be a new occupant moves into a property being told they have to settle the outstanding debt on the meter for the Green Deal payments, I have already seen people taking over prepayment meters to discover that the previous occupants of the dwelling have left a debt of over £200 on the meter to argue about with energy supply company.
Then consider that if the repayment charge is attached to the electric meter for up to to twenty five years then this debt, which over 25 years would more than double, may have to be paid off by people who are not even born yet, the debt originally having been taken on by people who may have died!

Then there are the people who won't save money due to having fancy technology in their homes as they can't afford to heat and light them in the first place so don't turn things on, being told they can have a flat but they have to pay a charge on the electric meter to cover work carried out many years previously could make the property unaffordable.

In short the energy saving measures, FIT and RHI are going to have to pretty amazing to the point where we are making the old housing stock of this country carbon neutral and I don't think that is achievable.

Andy

Edited: 11 December 2011 at 08:21 PM by sparkingchip
 11 December 2011 09:30 PM
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jcm256

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There is nothing wrong with improving the insulation of homes to use less energy. This devious plan will be a winner for the Government because it will create 200000 jobs and that number will paying NI and Tax. Vat will also be collected again and again each time you pay an electricity bill if you are in contract to this scheme, and once again the money will come from those who can least afford it.

To illustrate the point, last week your friends in Ireland cut the insulation grants from 4000 euros to I think 1,800 euros and there was an outcry about the government cutting its own throat. Below is what happens (as an illustration to only three employees) who will loose their jobs. What's the betting will arise a crafty plan like the UK.



http://foggers.hubpages.com/hu...land-Insulation-Grants
 11 December 2011 09:39 PM
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slittle

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Ho hum, I'll stick to my farms me thinks. Can't see many pigs or chickens worrying about signing up and the turkeys......... well it's too late this year for them

No doubt another scheme that will start, and finish almost before it started.

Stu
 12 December 2011 08:55 PM
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sparkingchip

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You are right jcm about there being nothing wrong with improving homes to use less energy.

The idea of the Greed Deal is a good one, but and it is a big but, without the input of grant money trying to supply and install home improvements to achieve compliance with the golden rule of the green deal is going to be extremely challenging, even allowing for the savings being over the period of the finance being charged to the energy bill which may be ten to twenty five years.

Even more challenging will be putting this down on paper to produce a proposal that can withstand people coming back after several years and saying that the work carried out was not fit for purpose and yes I do have concerns about attaching debt to a property that may have to be paid off by people not yet even born!

But I'm only one doubting Thomas and there is a whole load of people out there who may prove me wrong!

Andy
 27 January 2012 09:29 PM
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sparkingchip

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I receive a printed copy of H&V News the newspaper for the Heating, ventilation and air conditioning industry, they are starting to comments on doubts over the Green deal from within the industry.

First on the new Green deal Competency framework:
"Industry experts have voiced concerns about some aspects of the Green Deal after a number of announcements concerning the government scheme, including the launch of the Green Deal Skills Alliance (GDSA).

The GDSA is comprised of three sector skills councils: Asset Skills, ConstructionSkills and SummitSkills.

"The Green Deal Skills Alliance will help industry face the challenges ahead so people get the right training and qualifications they will need in order to gain work under the Green Deal."

Baxi Commercial Division applications manager Jeff House said that although additional consumer protection may be necessary for some aspects of the Green Deal, the building services sector already has a plethora of certification schemes in place, which could easily form the basis for a quality standard.

"With the addition of yet another certification scheme, uptake of the Green Deal may be impacted owing to unnecessary compliance costs and administrative burden," said Jeff House"

So the industry is not happy with the prospect of more certification schemes, next there is the issue of the Green deal having to be offered as a complete package.

"However, BSRIA chief executive Andrew Eastwell told H&V News that the scheme was bringing a long-standing industry problem firmly into focus.

"The institutional separation of skills between plumbers, electricians and builders, especially acute at the SME level, is simply incompatible with Green Deal requirements," said Mr Eastwell.

He added that small-scale heating and plumbing firms have provided excellent local services to householders, but lack capacity in skills such as window replacement and insulation.

He said the government should develop local partnership deals "so that the full range of remedial measures can be provided in a turnkey deal" "

Then there is the issue that fuel poor households may be unable or unwilling to accept higher bills, and therefore it is unlikely that there will be a significant take-up of the Green deal in rural areas in the opinion of Jeremy Hawksley the director general of OFTEC

You can view the articles online at http://www.hvnplus.co.uk/ however you do have to give your personal details and register.

Andy
 28 January 2012 07:23 AM
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normcall

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I suppose that means that my project to use a small combined heat and power unit combined with a few solar panels to provide independent heat and power 24/7 will have to be put on hold. I was expecting the government to pay for all the solar panels of roofs as it will save them building replacement power stations, but somehow that hasn't happened either.
Very much a one way system it seems. The government and large organisations win. All this talk of 'localisation' seems to be a useful source of hot air to generate electricity or fly.

-------------------------
Norman
 28 January 2012 09:34 AM
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sparkingchip

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Did you read this on that link to H&V News? "The government has lost its appeal against a High Court decision that it acted unlawfully in slashing solar subsidies in a move that could see thousands of homeowners receive a higher Feed-in Tariff rate."

If you read on down the article you will see the number of properties that will benefit from FIT for Solar PV will be very limited, so chances are it wouldn't be viable for you anyway.

Or is it the importance of the Green Deal all inclusive package?

Andy
 28 January 2012 09:50 AM
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normcall

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But if you do away with 'grid' gas and electricity supplies, you don't care about FIT etc. A few batteries, 12v equipment and coal for heating if the CHP unit fails.

-------------------------
Norman
 28 January 2012 10:04 AM
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sparkingchip

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COAL!!!

Biomass, burn wood from a replenish-able source that will sink carbon whilst it is growing.

If properties have to be EPC level C to benefit from a higher rate FIT to earn the money to repay the loan and comply with the "Golden rule of the Green Deal", then the package concept comes into play.

To get the panels on the roof the contractor may have to be involved in installing external insulation over the exterior walls of the property, then getting it rendered and painted, along with new windows and doors, etc, etc.

Then the cost of this goes onto the electric meter for repayment over a long time.

The only contractor that seems to be positioning itself in the market locally is Mark Insulation http://www.markgroup.co.uk/home-insulation/ by being able to offer a full package.

Andy
 28 January 2012 11:39 AM
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rocknroll

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A lot of people are waiting for the fine print to emerge first;

Then the cost of this goes onto the electric meter for repayment over a long time.


Just to point out that the finance is not a personal loan to the householder or building owner but a charge held on the property if there is enough equity, the future owner must agree to take on the debt otherwise the charge must be paid out of the proceeds of your sale.

by being able to offer a full package.


Not 'everything' will be included in the Green deal, take windows for instance they are at the moment not part of the package, some will have to be paid for through grants or finance by the householder or building owner.

Early days at the moment whilst everybody is eagerly waiting for the full details to emerge, the proposed implementation date of 1 Oct 2012 is looking a bit shaky to say the least.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 28 January 2012 01:59 PM
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sparkingchip

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Just looking at the BSRIA website http://www.bsria.co.uk/news/gd-consultation/


I think it was Tracey Vegro who gave the talk I attended at the Installer live show a bit back, the slides from her talk look familiar!

Andy

This time the is talk of some cash being available "Government funding of £200m will be made available to boost early take up."
IET » Wiring and the regulations » what the hell is green deal??

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