Why not - whilst I appreciate many of the points you make are possible, in practice many of them aren't credible - next time your out and about take notice that we are not surrounded by charred hulks and dead bodies.

RFC's have done a sterling job in millions of properties for many years - the evidence simply doesn't support the vague hypothetical risks - which incidentally are also true for any other circuit topography.

Take a look at circuit design in detail - even fully compliant with BS 7671 it is possible to "design in" failure conditions - particularly for thermal withstand, overload and aspects where users deploy practices that are unusual (think of overloads between 1.13 and 1.45 x In for example where the design is totally reliant on cable standards and can easily allow thermal damage to occur).


Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option

ACT 2 - enter right, right?

So what is the consensus about rings?
IMO
trees and bushes can lead to a level of confusion when inspecting and testing domestic installations
stars from an obvious point fed off a radial makes sense, particularly for lighting.

lollipops, now, appears to make sense when utilizing redundant cooker radials or where it is easier to run a radial to a point where sockets were to be installed, but would still lead to ambiguity when labeling. What would you call the circuit? 'Lollipop socket ' or socket lollipop or radial sub-main feeding ring?

Legh

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Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."

How about a "small power circuit"

OMS

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Failure is always an option

Legh said


Surely not worse than RFC - especially if you believe GN 3 - which I usually don't .

Regards

Geoff Blackwell

When I Install in domestic properties I always give this question a bit of thought, since the RFC was devised electrical consumption has changed and increased beyond all recognition, generally though I end up with Ground floor ring, First floor ring, Kitchen Ring and Kitchen utility radial, it seems to work out well in most instances.

The Upstairs and Down stairs of most houses nowadays seems to be full of Electronic devices & gadgets, as for the kitchen there seems to be an increasing number of counter top appliances which are close to or fully rated rated. The Utility radial can encompass most of what I call permanently connected appliances such as Fridge freezers, Washing machines, dish washers, tumble dryers, warm drawers etc etc.

The Ring does seem to still have a place the only alternative i consider is a 20/32A radial per room.

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com

A ring mains make a job more interesting.
Radials are mundane. Ring main faults scatter the brain.
Great.

I can't see any confusion in GN3's method of testing RFCs - only in an inspector's interpretation of the resultant values given by their instruments.

Don't you think?

Leg

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Why do we need Vernier Calipers when we have container ships?

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

"Science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has overcome not only time and space - but any objections."

I am not going to get involved in yet another discussion on the tests that some seem to think are necessary for RFC - I have said plenty on that in the past .

BS 7671 : 2008 612.2.2 simples .

Regards

Geoff Blackwell

Another controversial question.

OK, so a bridged ring makes it all but impossible to test.

But surely it's generally safer than a broken ring, and when a single break, safer than a broken ring alone?

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Eur Ing Graham Kenyon CEng MIET

I changed a consumer unit for one of my neighbours where the kitchen fitter installed a "lollipop" ring to the kitchen, a 6mm t+e to a hidden junction box from where a 2.5mm t+e ring was supplied, I took a socket off in the kitchen and tested the ring section and assessed the radial section as best I could only having access to one end of it.

I would quite happily condemn it, however I reported what I found and wrote it up on the report and left it at that as is the current thinking of dealing with such matters.

Nothing wrong with rings, but I have opted for radials recently for different reasons, where there is insulation it is easier to rate the 2.5mm t+e at 16 amps and have two 16 amp radial circuits than rate the cable at 20 amps and have one 32 amp ring circuit or start installing rings with oversized circuit conductors.


Andy

I expect if you look at the walls for imperfections, you'll see where the big old cooker control panel used to be. With a bit of digging you'll probably find a block of connectors plastered away in there, maybe even taped up!

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Regard
Richard (Dick)

www.rllewellyn.co.uk

I happen to know this was a brand new circuit, the original cooker circuit was used to supply a SFCU to the cooker hood, gas hob ignition and single electric oven plugged into sockets on the lollipop circuit.

Seeing as we are only supposed to report dangers and potential dangers rather than maybe not complying with the regs then it isn't a big issue is it?

Andy

No issue at all for me if it meats circuit design criteria. As you say, we don't inspect cables under floors or burried in walls on a PIR, so perhaps the only non compliance is an inaccesible junction box

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Regard
Richard (Dick)

www.rllewellyn.co.uk

dick

'it meats circuit design criteria'

No beef with that then?

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John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/

Now cow John

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Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com

That's what comes with having a vegetarian missus John. We had Chinese takeaway this evening, and I got to have some nice beef in black bean sauce, so the meat must have gone to my head!

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Regard
Richard (Dick)

www.rllewellyn.co.uk

When does your local vegetarian club have the next meating?

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Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik

NICEIC have a article in the Professional Electrician magazine saying "Lollipop" circuits are OK.

Andy

Why shouldn't they be, all else being equal, provided you can get at the JB (or other type of "accessory" or "equipment") to carry out the RFC continuity test?

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Eur Ing Graham Kenyon CEng MIET

I`d love to see comments on what I called a "Butterfly" (I`d call it figure of eight but a fig of 8 already exists) - two rings with one fuseway, being one circuit by definition or even three/four rings ("clover" perhaps) all obeying circuit lengths/floor space served and loading considerations etc
as one would with a proper ring.

Not nice to test perhaps but being non conventional does it make it unsafe/poor practice?

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Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik