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Topic Title: JPEL/64 BS 7671 Committee members
Topic Summary: Is there a list of members?
Created On: 09 March 2011 12:38 PM
Status: Read Only
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 12 August 2017 06:40 PM
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iie63674

Posts: 108
Joined: 17 May 2006

But Mike, only a very few of BSI's Standards are called up in official legislation.
 12 August 2017 06:59 PM
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mapj1

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True, but '7671, which is the one we discuss here is referenced by the building regs guidance,- and in the same way that I can put in an FOI on the meetings that created the approved docs if I wish to, the thread of responsibility can legitimately be unravelled. The moral of course is to publish responsibly and be able to back up your recommendations.
Any assumption of '"No need to know" has gone the way of pipe smoke and the slide rule, whether for better or worse.
Intersting times.
And the BSI is not quite like a 'normal' company - it has a Royal Charter which defines its functions, much in the same way as a number of public institutions like the BBC.
Hear Ye..

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 12 August 2017 at 07:09 PM by mapj1
 12 August 2017 07:46 PM
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iie63674

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But, guidance is only that, not legislation. The approved docs are a little different, being drafted by civil servants, are they not?
 12 August 2017 07:49 PM
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iie63674

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7671 is unusual in listing the members of the committee - it's the only BS I know that does.
 12 August 2017 09:39 PM
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leckie

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Am I missing something here? Why do we care who the members of the committee are for a publication that is yet to go into a final version print? It must be me, I'm sure there is a perfectly logical reason
 13 August 2017 12:01 AM
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sparkingchip

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Who is representing the interests of domestic electrical installation users and installers?



Some housing associations own so many properties that if they were all in one place they would be comparable to a fair sized town, who is representing their interests?



Are we relying on those who are on the committee having a casual interest in domestic installation, because they have one at home rather than it being their specialist interest?



Andy B.


When the new edition of BS7671 is published there will be a list of committee members in it, so why is there the cloak and dagger act now?

Is it you prevent lobbying or to make hiring and firing easier?

I am not currently on any committees, though I have been on a variety of committees in the past.

I felt no need to hide that I represented the local Young Farmers club on the village hall committee or the Hereford and Worcestershire Young Farmers on the Council for Protection of Rural England, indeed I was a school governor at the local school all without a veil of secrecy and having been appointed after advertising the fact that I was standing for office with a democratic selection process that gave people the opportunity you propose, second and vote for me.


Twice in my life in have been asked to sign confidentiality agreements, once by a international manufacturer of electrical equipment when I was part of a customer focus group discussing the design 18th Edition metal consumer units and also at a NAPIT trade association meeting, on both occasionsides it was stated that commercially sensitive matters may be discussed and people would be able to speak more freely if they were confident that anything they said would not be broadcast far and wide.

However here we have a committee that has the ability to make huge changes to our working practices and lives, placing all sorts of responsibilities upon us that may result in legal proceedings being taken against us, yet apparently we are not even allowed to know who they are at this time, never mind have a say in their appointment to the committee.

Hardly a clear and democratic process is it?

Andrew Betteridge
 13 August 2017 08:43 AM
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AJJewsbury

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Originally posted by: iie63674

But, guidance is only that, not legislation. The approved docs are a little different, being drafted by civil servants, are they not?


BS 7671 is called up directly by legislation - The Electricity Safety Quality & Continuity Regulations for one. I suspect a lot of product safety standards are called up via CE marking legislation too.

- Andy.
 13 August 2017 10:26 AM
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sparkingchip

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The argument could be that when legislation is drawn up we don't know who all the civil servants were who prepared it, just the politicians who signed it off.

Some years ago I stood in one of my customers study at his home drinking a cup of coffee whilst he signed off around five billion pounds worth of he NHS budget, with his being the acknowledgment of the budget having been correctly calculated, prior to the minister adding his signature. No one else really knows what happened in that study that morning and how that guy reached the decision the legislation was correctly drafted and the minister certainly wouldn't go through it in the same detail, just taking a overview, but if anyone looks at that document now they would consider the minister responsible for it.

Does the list of members published in BS7671 actually contain the names of all the committee members or are dome omitted? Do we ever know who was involved in the decision making?

Can those who let something reach the final edition in error, perhaps just due to not proof reading correctly, such as errors in the diagram of how to wire a socket ring circuit just want to avoid people knowing they were involved?

Andy Betteridge
 13 August 2017 07:40 PM
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iie63674

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Originally posted by: AJJewsbury

Originally posted by: iie63674



But, guidance is only that, not legislation. The approved docs are a little different, being drafted by civil servants, are they not?




BS 7671 is called up directly by legislation - The Electricity Safety Quality & Continuity Regulations for one. I suspect a lot of product safety standards are called up via CE marking legislation too.



- Andy.

Andy, thanks, I'd overlooked the ESQCRs. Interesting that it still refers to Amd 2 of the 16th edition...
Product standards are one way of achieving conformity to the CE marking Directives, but as far as I know none of those Directives call up specific standards. If they did, it would be CEN or CENELEC standards, not BSs.
 13 August 2017 10:29 PM
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gkenyon

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

I cannot see anyone to directly represent private homeowners, housing associations, landlords, letting agents and the like with a specific interest in domestic electrical installations, with perhaps the exception of Electrical Safety First a consumer organisation and NAPIT a trade association.



It is fairly safe to assume that all those on the committee have a casual interest in domestic electrical installations, as they all live somewhere that has one, but not all of them may have a direct responsibility for the electrical installation in their own home, so it may be a very casual interest.



Andrew Betteridge
Just a personal opinion, trying to help the furtherance of this thread.

There are a number of Part P registration bodies on there, to say the least ... and it's perhaps fair to say the list may not be 100 % complete ... perhaps BSI ran out of space on the web-page?

I also think it's safe to say the IET consider all types of installation in their approach to the Regulations .. and electrical safety in general.


A huge chunk of BS 7671 is nothing to do with "domestic" requirements, and it's really hard to get the spread of expertise across all relevant users for those parts. This is particularly important for Part 7, but applies equally to big chunks of Parts 4 and 5.


Having said that, perhaps we need to consider that installations in dwellings are starting to become more "odd" as time goes on ... EV charging and Energy Storage spring to mind as "hot topics of the day".

-------------------------
EUR ING Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
G Kenyon Technology Ltd

Web-Site: www.gkenyontech.com
IET » Wiring and the regulations » JPEL/64 BS 7671 Committee members

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