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Topic Title: "Non-association Cable" tag
Topic Summary: how old?
Created On: 07 January 2011 01:07 AM
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 07 January 2011 01:07 AM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11775
Joined: 13 August 2003

One for the history bods...

I've found a tag under the floorboards of my new (to me) house - which seems to have come from a reel of cable. Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to it's age? Or indeed the type of cable it refers to? (CAB, VIR etc).

I'll have to see if I can get a decent image from scanning it, but in the mean time the text on it reads as follows (bits in italics look like they are hand written in ink with a nib pen):


NON-ASSOCIATION CABLE

Guaranteed Insulation Resistance per mile, after
24 hours' immersion in water at 60 Faht. and
one minute's electrification 1250 Megohms.

(then a logo of a Roman soldier or centurion, overlayed with a "CMA" cartouche) Copyright L.B. Atkinson Exclusive Licensees Members of the C.M.A.

Length 100 Yards
Size 3/029
Insulation 600 Megohms
Class F 87

The Greengate & Irwell Rubber Co., Ltd.,
GREENGATE CABLE WORKS,
SALFORD, MANCHESTER.

Please see that this label and seal are intact.


- Andy.
 07 January 2011 02:25 PM
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Angram

Posts: 565
Joined: 23 March 2009

(Gets out his pipe and deerstalker hat)

They seem to be going to unusual lengths to justify selecting this cable. You would think known types of rubber would have know IR.

I wonder if it was Polythene insulation. When ICI first invented it there were attempts to get it approved as an insulation for cable and flex.

A firm in Leeds called "Capothene Cables" made insulated flex. It was used but not approved. I suppose a license to use poythene may have been required in the early years. If not there would have to some other innovation for the mystery cable.

The Centurion served in the Cable Makers Association. I remember him. Very trustworthy. No re-calls.

Ans: 1950s or early 1960s ?

Terence.
 07 January 2011 03:01 PM
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sparkingchip

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Messing about on google brought me back to this forum!

and pictures http://www.diybanter.com/uk-diy/312807-non-association-cable.html
 07 January 2011 03:08 PM
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sparkingchip

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 07 January 2011 08:38 PM
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kj scott

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Now that you have mentioned it; I found a cable reel cover for War grade VIR recently in one of Henry Viii old palaces. anyone else know anything about it?
WWII that is not War of the Roses

-------------------------
http://www.niceic.biz
 07 January 2011 11:48 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11775
Joined: 13 August 2003

I wonder if it was Polythene insulation.

Anything's possible - the house originally dates from about 1910, so has probably lived through most innovations. I haven't noticed anything so unusual yet though. Remnants of cotton-covered rubber in black conduit found in the loft and rubber insulated & sheathed cables still in use in the cellar. Mostly PVC now though. Indications of gas lighting in the cellar, but haven't found any evidence in the rest of the house yet - was domestic electric lighting common in 1910 new builds 'up north'?

It's the presence of the CMA logo and "Non-Association" on the same tag that puzzles me though - did CMA firms also produce non-standard cables?

- Andy.
 08 January 2011 03:20 PM
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ennel

Posts: 40
Joined: 20 October 2003

Originally posted by: AJJewsbury

It's the presence of the CMA logo and "Non-Association" on the same tag that puzzles me though - did CMA firms also produce non-standard cables?
- Andy.


I think 'Non-Association' merely meant 'not manufactured to any CMA published specification' rather than meaning produced by a non-approved manufacturer.

This seems to be borne out by the text on the bottom RH corner of page 403 in the scans attached to sparkingchips reply - with the (1931) statement "Non-Association Cable ... is made by all the firms in the Cable Makers' Association".

Greengate & Irwell continued to produce 'non standard' cables, to a client's requirements and spec, well into the 1960s.

My Lancashire lift manufacturer employer bought all its (own design of) lift travelling cables from them prior to the introduction of a relevant BSS in 1959.

Also, in the pre-1970 days, 1/.044" and 3/.029" (imperial) cable were the smallest standard single-core 230/440v grade items for conduit wiring. We often needed to get a relatively large number of low voltage, low current cables into the conduit from top to bottom of a lift shaft, so the smaller the diameter the better, but our chief engineer had a dislike for single strand cables.

Accordingly Greengate made for us large quantities of a special "super thin" single-core stranded 3/.018" cable with 230v grade insulation (white insulation with black printed numbers along the length, of which we stocked nos 1-20 inclusive in the stores) which we used for wiring 12/24v indicator circuits in the same conduits as higher voltage circuits.

Just had a quick check in the garage - and I'm down to my last two unused coils of this 3/.018" - it's handy as a pull-through if nothing else!

Incidentally in the "little red book" (that's the 1955 13th edition of the Regs which was current when I was a student), Table 12 (Rubber, PVC or polythene-insulated cables, single-core, 1/.044" - 19/.064") has a note to the effect that "the current rating of a fittings wire (3/.020" ) is 3 amperes" - so our cable was even a variant on that !
 08 January 2011 06:25 PM
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Jaymack

Posts: 4789
Joined: 07 April 2004

VRI Cable reply
Originally posted by: g3xoi
VIR = Vulcanised India Rubber.
Describes the outer sheath. The core insulation is usually non-vulcanised and softer.

For single core cable, I don't recall the core insulation being 2 layers, this was homogenous as I recall. The India Rubber was Vulcanised ......... the cable however was Vulcanised Rubber Insulated, hence the correct term V.R.I. cable.

Often the outer was further covered with a woven cotton braid which was impregrated with ?paint or rubber? I forget which.

The braiding was immersed in a waxy solution. As it didn't have the same insulating properties as the rubber, it had to be dressed back about 15mm away from the rubber core.

Regards

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh...qPR8Lg?feat=directlink
 08 January 2011 10:09 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 11775
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I think 'Non-Association' merely meant 'not manufactured to any CMA published specification' rather than meaning produced by a non-approved manufacturer.

That makes sense...

VRI Cable reply

I did deliberately refer to 'cotton covered rubber' to try and avoid re-igniting the old VIR/VRI debate...

Anyhow, I've dug the old scanner out of the box: http://i1098.photobucket.com/a...sociationCableTag.jpg
in case there are any more clues there.


- Andy.
 09 January 2011 11:58 AM
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perspicacious

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One for the history bods...

From the 1926 SUNCO (The Sun Electrical Co Ltd) catalogue p95:

V.I.R. cables Class H.B. 600 Megohm Specification,-H.C. tinned copper, insulated with pure and vulcanised indiarubber (sic), taped, braided, and compounded to British Engineering Standards Specification.

Ref No. W 303
Minimum insuation resistance per mile at 60 deg F Megohms 1250
Size 3/.029
Price per 1000 yards £8.12.6
Price per 100 yards coil 17s 3d
Price per yard 2 1/2d

More revealing is the next page headed V.I.R. cables British Manufacture (suggesting that the previous page was "imported"?)

3.029
E.A.B. 600 megohm N.A. Quality 19s 0d per 100 yards
E.B.B. 600 megohm Ass. Quality £1. 2. 6 per 100 yards
E.C.B. 2,500 megohm Ass. Quality £1. 3. 6 per 100 yards.

I've no idea as to the E.A, B, or C.B code meaning other than possibly makers code for insulation value.

It appears we had the options of "non BASEC", BASEC approved to 600 megohm and BASEC approved to 2,500 megohm with prices reflecting this.

As to the OP, does it appear from this that the tag indicates imported cable Andy?

And to reignite, from a 1915 electrical dictionary:
India Rubber.- An elastic gummy substance derived from the milky juice of a variety of tropical trees and plants. The best rubber known as Para comes from Brazil, Bolivia and Peru. Many other grades are obtained from South America and Africa. India Rubber has valuable insulating properties. As good india (sic) rubber is expensive.....etc
Vulcanize.- To combine sulphur with natural rubber in order to prolong the life of its elasticity and to prevent softening by heat.
Hence, VIR

Regards

BOD
 09 January 2011 01:02 PM
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Angram

Posts: 565
Joined: 23 March 2009

So perhaps it was for the singles in the black conduit ?
Is the conduit threaded or clamp jointed ?
Is it seamless or folded construction ?
 09 January 2011 01:31 PM
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perspicacious

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The SUNCO catalogue continues with Lead covered cables with no mention of Association status. It is designated Class H.B.L. 600 Megohm Grade.

For 3/.029 single lead covered £2.7.1 for 100 yards, twin lead covered (a note adds the tapes are of different colours for twin and triple) £3.17.10 and triple lead covered £6.6.6.

Regards

BOD
 09 January 2011 01:50 PM
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Jaymack

Posts: 4789
Joined: 07 April 2004

Originally posted by: perspicacious
Hence, VIR

Not to be confused with Vulcanised Rubber Insulated ............. cable.

Regards
 09 January 2011 02:04 PM
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John Peckham

Posts: 7616
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I have always known rubber insulated cable as VIR which may also be cotton covered or Tough Rubber Sheath (TRS). I beleive old time sparks also called TRS Cab Tyre as the covering was alegedly made from old tyres.

However looking through my 11th Edition of the Regs. I found a reference to Vulcanised -rubber-insulated in regulation 402.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 09 January 2011 02:33 PM
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Jaymack

Posts: 4789
Joined: 07 April 2004

Originally posted by: John Peckham
However looking through my 11th Edition of the Regs. I found a reference to Vulcanised -rubber-insulated in regulation 402.


Look no further than the part P document P37!

During my 5 year technical apprenticeship, a long time ago now , the college tutor - Jack Brown, rammed it home on the correct terminology for electrical terms - VRI not VIR, Plugs not Plugtops, Capacitors not Condensers, etc. and the fact that black tape was not insulating and only to be used for holding proper insulation tape in place, e.g. empire tape!

We were well educated in those days by ex-craftsmen and worthy of the respected name - Electrician.

Regards
 09 January 2011 02:47 PM
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normcall

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Obviously a 'local' thing.
I was taught, VIR, plugtops (plugs were fixed to the wall then!), Condensers, but that nice cloth tape was very useful.
But then screwits were the 'norm' until the BICC loktights came in.
This was from on the job training rather than college as OND didn't really cover c&g A, B and C that the others did.

-------------------------
Norman
 09 January 2011 03:48 PM
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Jaymack

Posts: 4789
Joined: 07 April 2004

Originally posted by: normcall
Obviously a 'local' thing.

Not really, more of a slang term by the uninformed or started by a local dyslexic.

I was taught, VIR, plugtops (plugs were fixed to the wall then!), Condensers, but that nice cloth tape was very useful.

Unwieldy and thick to boot, linen woven and impregnated with a yellow wax. The black tape then, (before PVC) was also tacky linen, a party trick would be to start the roll in the darkness and see the static as it unpeeled from the roll.

But then screwits were the 'norm' until the BICC loktights came in.

I knew them as scruits The Yanks improved on the original porcelain tapered pot, they introduced a spring clip and call them wire nuts.

See another CMA label from the day "insulated with vulcanised rubber": -

http://i563.photobucket.com/al...ageCableLabel10001.jpg
 09 January 2011 04:50 PM
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John Peckham

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Clearly local regional variations. In this part of the world the old sparks called Screwits "dog cocks".

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 09 January 2011 05:23 PM
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Angram

Posts: 565
Joined: 23 March 2009

Just to keep this thread of vital information going:

Black Tape was a contraction of Blackley Tape. Blackley, Manchester being the location of the factory. It was a major cause of low IR over time. Rip out the black tape and an old installation would often pass.

Doesn't all tape generate thousands of volts when you unwind quickly? What's the mechanism ? I heard it explained once upon a time. Don't do it near electronics.
 09 January 2011 06:37 PM
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jcm256

Posts: 1943
Joined: 01 April 2006

If you put this site below on the internet

magnetic effect of steel wire armour

Then scroll down to Electrical Cables Handbook by George F Moore BICC Cables Ltd 1997.

This will give you some history of cables from 1880. (May or may not help)

Regards
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