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Topic Title: Domestic periodic
Topic Summary: Cables ran behind skirting (again)
Created On: 02 October 2010 09:37 AM
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 02 October 2010 09:37 AM
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grahamtomo

Posts: 71
Joined: 03 February 2008

Hi all,
Looked at a job for a landlord, he had a builder refurb a house including a full rewire, or so he thought. Anyway no cert or part p compliance has been issued so he thought he could get me to certify but I have told him I am only prepared to issue a PIR.
Turns out all the new cabling has been run behind the skirting board and as such I am issuing an unsatisfactory as I find it a ridiculous method besides the fact it is not in a safe zone. I have had various opinion from fellow sparks one being that the cables are not buried in the fabric of the building.
I am 100% about issuing an unsatisfactory but I was just interested in any other opinions of what you would do in the same situation i.e. would you advise the landlord to perhaps install some battoned out skirting or even skirting trunking???
 02 October 2010 10:08 AM
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rocknroll

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What is the risk? is anybody likely to hang a picture or shelves on the skirting board.

You can purchase skirting with a routed channel specifically for this purpose! or if you are practical rout a channel.

Does 'buried in the fabric' mean just cement or plaster or could it mean wood and plasterboard.

I presume there is an RCD.?

Hardly worth a mention, low risk, if you want to mention it on your PIR go ahead, if at a later date a tenant decides to hang a coat hook on the skirting and the RCD dont work and they kill themselves, nobody will bother you, the landlord is the person responsible for the installation.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 02 October 2010 10:11 AM
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grahamtomo

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If there was no risk then behind skirting board would become a safe zone.
The potential risk in my opinion is someone refixing a piece of losse skirting with a nice 6" inch nail. Definately worth a mention I feel!!
 02 October 2010 10:15 AM
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grahamtomo

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Also the presence of an RCD does not mean we can run cables anywhere we like.
With regards to cables concealed within the fabric of the building not being inspected in this case is not applicable because it is very obvious even to the untrained eye that the cables have been run in this manner as you can see them passing behind at various points of the property.
Also if we sign a PIR with a satisfactory we are signing a document verifying the safety of the installation thus taking responsibility no question about it being the unskilled landlords, it is only his responsibility to instruct skilled tradesmen to verify its safety
 02 October 2010 10:18 AM
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ebee

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Unless it is horizontal from a point etc then it is not a safe zone - quite rightly not so in my opinion (i must confess that I don't like the other safe zones too apart from the verticals and perhaps some very obvious horizontals such as short ones in kitchens - but they are permitted so I can't argue really, my most hated one is the 150mm top of wall one just waiting for someone to pin cornice up whilst it sets)

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 02 October 2010 10:21 AM
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grahamtomo

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Ebee I agree.
Sockets are mounted at 450mm so the cables dont run horizontal.

Would agree with my unsatisfactory verdict or not?
 02 October 2010 11:42 AM
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rocknroll

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What is the risk??????????????

The zones are not set in stone, there may be practical reasons why you cant use the zonal system, but you weigh up the risks, its easy to dream up scenarios, like a householder screwing a long hook into the ceiling to hang a dreamcatcher from all the rage now, what about the cables lying on the plasterboard 15 to 18mm away.

Cables behind the skirting are probably much safer than cables in zones where householder will hang pictures, shelves, cupboards etc;

What about plastic skirting trunking, cracking it with the hoover, moving furniture could damage it, see you can dream risks to suit any situation.

As I said in my opinion the risk is low and isnt worth a mention, unless your hoping to get extra work.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 02 October 2010 11:56 AM
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grahamtomo

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Not hoping to get extra work R&R domestic aint really my thing.

Periodics and the regs for that matter are down to the inspectors own interpretation and mine in this case is that it is unsatisfactory.

Im sticking to my guns about safe zones, if the sockets were mounted on skirting as in many old houses then I would be happy but as this a newly rewired installation then there is not a cat in hells chance that I am signing it as satisfactory and I couldnt give a monkies about getting the work repairing it.

How is skirting fixed?? Screws and nails!!

What are the cables sitting on?? Screws and nails!!

This is only my humble opinion and I was just interested in others own opinions.
 02 October 2010 12:52 PM
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Jaymack

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Where would we be without rules? Definitely a code 1 IMO, if someone removes skirting by driving a chisel or whatever behind, they are in for a hellluva shock Could be made safer by labelling on the skirting and at the DB.

Regards
 02 October 2010 01:01 PM
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rocknroll

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domestic aint really my thing.

Maybe the problem.

A PIR is not an electrical certificate neither is a certificate of compliance, it is what it says on the tin, and inspection report which is 80% visual and some 20% selective testing the rules are there to guide you but at the end of the day its a 'risk assessment'.

The cables might not be in the recommended zones but is there a risk???

Questions;
Is the location of the cables likely to cause damage to the property (fire).
Is the location of the cables likely the kill all the tenants who reside in the property.
By requiring the landlord to batten out the skirting or fitting plastic compartment skirting will this guarantee immunity against the 6 inch nail or damage from moving furniture or hoover if plastic.
Why do they make skirting with a routed channel or concave surface for this purpose.
How often do people change the skirting board.
If you needed to fit an extra socket along the wall at home and the only way was behind the skirting board because your wall was newly decorated and you had a new wood floor would you chase out the wall horizontally and try and match a piece of that £50 a roll wallpaper along the chase or rip up your new laminate floor and remembering when you sell the house to put stickers on the skirting like 'Live cables behind'.

Like I said in my opinion it is low risk and does not warrant an 'unsatisfactory' but if you want to mention it on the report then that is up to you.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 02 October 2010 01:12 PM
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ant1uk

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Originally posted by: grahamtomo

Hi all,

Looked at a job for a landlord, he had a builder refurb a house including a full rewire, or so he thought. Anyway no cert or part p compliance has been issued so he thought he could get me to certify but I have told him I am only prepared to issue a PIR.


This goes on all the time. people get non qualified people in to do their rewires on the cheap and then they think they can just call in a sparks to sign it off and give them a cert.

Your BC may not accept a PIR because you have not viewed the job through the stages of the install. your only looking at it now from the outside. it depends how strict the BC are.
 02 October 2010 01:18 PM
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patt2

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Graham, is that the only "unsatisfactory "in the installation. And are you sure the cables are behind the skirting.
 02 October 2010 01:18 PM
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rocknroll

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Some BC's will accept a PIR but we dont, we have our own inspector who works for our contract services and he fills in the three part certificate where we will enter the names of the Designer and Installer.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 02 October 2010 01:41 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: rocknroll

Some BC's will accept a PIR but we dont, we have our own inspector who works for our contract services and he fills in the three part certificate where we will enter the names of the Designer and Installer.

regards


Does that really comply?

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 02 October 2010 01:54 PM
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tonyericsson

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Originally posted by: grahamtomo

Hi all,

Looked at a job for a landlord, he had a builder refurb a house including a full rewire, or so he thought. Anyway no cert or part p compliance has been issued so he thought he could get me to certify but I have told him I am only prepared to issue a PIR.

Turns out all the new cabling has been run behind the skirting board and as such I am issuing an unsatisfactory as I find it a ridiculous method besides the fact it is not in a safe zone. I have had various opinion from fellow sparks one being that the cables are not buried in the fabric of the building.

I am 100% about issuing an unsatisfactory but I was just interested in any other opinions of what you would do in the same situation i.e. would you advise the landlord to perhaps install some battoned out skirting or even skirting trunking???



It does not comply unless the cables are greater than 50mm from the surface of the wall and RCD'd.

For me code 2 for the one you have seen and code 3 for other possible cables behind other skirting boards.

Sounds really rough to me.

As for channels in the back of skirting boards, I think you might find they are a different pattern of reversible skirting boards as opposed to cable channels.!
Whatever next R&R
You'll have BCO officers signing certificates on their own paperwork to skirt around their own regulations next.!
 02 October 2010 01:58 PM
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rocknroll

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As a result of an incident where it was found that legally the PIR has no value our legal department after consultation with the CLG advised us on this and recommended the 3 part EIC should be used, not our decision, came from above.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 02 October 2010 at 02:39 PM by rocknroll
 02 October 2010 02:04 PM
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ant1uk

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Originally posted by: tonyericsson

It does not comply unless the cables are greater than 50mm from the surface of the wall and RCD'd.


Don't you mean if the cables are not greater than 50mm they need an RCD?

Anyway it needs an RCD because its less than 50mm and the cables are for the sockets.
 02 October 2010 02:25 PM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: tonyericsson

Originally posted by: grahamtomo

Hi all,

Looked at a job for a landlord, he had a builder refurb a house including a full rewire, or so he thought. Anyway no cert or part p compliance has been issued so he thought he could get me to certify but I have told him I am only prepared to issue a PIR.

Turns out all the new cabling has been run behind the skirting board and as such I am issuing an unsatisfactory as I find it a ridiculous method besides the fact it is not in a safe zone. I have had various opinion from fellow sparks one being that the cables are not buried in the fabric of the building.

I am 100% about issuing an unsatisfactory but I was just interested in any other opinions of what you would do in the same situation i.e. would you advise the landlord to perhaps install some battoned out skirting or even skirting trunking???


It does not comply unless the cables are greater than 50mm from the surface of the wall and RCD'd.

For me code 2 for the one you have seen and code 3 for other possible cables behind other skirting boards.

Sounds really rough to me.

As for channels in the back of skirting boards, I think you might find they are a different pattern of reversible skirting boards as opposed to cable channels.!

Whatever next R&R

You'll have BCO officers signing certificates on their own paperwork to skirt around their own regulations next.!


Dont get too excited about it remember I said in 'my opinion' so I expect a balanced argument from you not snide remarks. The sign of someone who has already lost the argument.

Where is the problem????????????????. Convince me expert.

Forget the rules, they are for guidance, quoting them without an argument means you have no thought process. common sense is a rare commodity.

It does not comply unless the cables are greater than 50mm from the surface of the wall and RCD'd.

Is that a true statement??

Sounds really rough to me.

Is it any rougher than cables slung under floorboards (ground and first floor) or cables slung under kitchen units??

Is it likely to cause damage to the property or endanger persons and livestock (apart from the dog p!ssing on the skirting board) but are they not insulated.?????

My opinion, my opinion, my opinion.

Where is the DANGER????

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 02 October 2010 02:29 PM
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tonyericsson

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Originally posted by: ant1uk

Originally posted by: tonyericsson



It does not comply unless the cables are greater than 50mm from the surface of the wall and RCD'd.




Don't you mean if the cables are not greater than 50mm they need an RCD?



Anyway it needs an RCD because its less than 50mm and the cables are for the sockets.



No, I meant what I said, unless the cables are armoured, in steel conduit, or in mechanical protection sufficient to resist a nail.

So the pvc cables would need to be greater than 50mm form surface & RCD protected.


Ant you are confusing cables in prescribed zones that are less than 50mm, they do not need to be armoured etc but do need RCD.

The only time you can get away with no RCD is with 50mm or greater AND armoured steel conduit etc or by
not concealing in the wall.
 02 October 2010 02:59 PM
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ant1uk

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Originally posted by: tonyericsson

Ant you are confusing cables in prescribed zones that are less than 50mm, they do not need to be armoured etc but do need RCD.


I'm not confusing what it says only that I don't remember it saying anywhere that it has to be 50mm or more and RCD protected.

Then again I could be wrong? Please correct me if I am.
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