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Topic Title: Enforcement
Topic Summary: Two things you might be interested in
Created On: 22 July 2010 11:42 PM
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 22 July 2010 11:42 PM
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Zs

Posts: 2780
Joined: 20 July 2006

Hello Chappies, I have two current things to share with you on the subject of enforcement of part P/electrical safety.

First this. I was called two weeks ago by a desperate lady. Could I go finish off an installation? The builder had stopped turning up and she had engaged a new one but his electrician has poor English and she was not confident (you know the score I'm sure). Truth is, I'm not available until at least October but I said I'd pop up for an hour.

I was faced with a fantastic first fix, if you like the prospect of loads of jb's in your ceiling, but with a few glaring 'ifs'. such as no isolation points for the cooker etc. But good and all labelled. I want to know where he was still managing to get copper cable company cable from, because I can't find it and I love it.

BUT... the incoming supply was so smashed up, with all the terminals from inside the supply joints literally exposed and hanging off the wall, that I couldn't tell what the earthing system was. the supply cable had black and red into terminals and a bunch of bare copper threads vaguely hanging in thin air but almost but kind of connected into the neutral terminal. TTPMENCS I think. Grand kind of earthing don't you think?

I said death trap a few times and told her I couldn't even tell if she was earthed. I asked her to call the supply authority and tell them I said it was an emergency. Then went on to tell her that I don't have time to QS a £50 a day electrician.

Well, EDF turned out at last today.

From the local circuit I know the guy who arrived. He took one look at the supply head and said fluke a few times, then that he had to phone the office. He too couldn't tell what was going on and thought they should see it before he did anything at all.

There were 6 EDF vans outside within an hour. Must have been a slow day? Real cameras arrived, and fat man with clip board.

No question, the building firm are going to be prosecuted for this so I thought you might like to know that it does happen.


And away from that drama, this little part P snippet has been brewing for a while;

I've been on the case of my local council for three years or so and have been doing some of their inspections of non-certified work so that they can sign the jobs off. The home owners have been paying me, not the council. Then along came the NAPIT LABC initiative in which Napit members were given a chance to be appointed onto a list of council approved inspectors for such work so I duly applied for the maximum three boroughs allowed.

Now that's an ongoing thing and bound to produce some passion. But I got all three, all three at a distance from my front door though. Paid my admin fee and now I wait for some information or a call. But my doorstep council are not on the list and I like an easy morning start. So I've done a bit of loitering on jobs where BC are coming round to have a look at the drains of late, Just ticking away in the background with my 2391 certificate sticking out of my back pocket and BOD's megger casually slung over my shoulder. 'Hey R&R, you ok? Looking swell Mister..... (oh alright, they're not as dynamic as R&R. Do you wear an M&S suit Rock?).

I'm mocking myself and I'll stop because this is quite important. My local BC have engaged me to carry out inspections of properties with work not notified or certified. Building works/ electrical works/ gas works carried out without LABC permission are all under scrutiny. At their expense they are prosecuting at last. I'm just a small part of the team to get all the relevant reports ready. Got my first purchase order this morning. An escorted inspection via a court order for access to the property. a house bought, developed without planning consent, and now up for sale.

They see it as prosecuting for the whole picture, be it a socket by the bath which they have told me about, or an extension without planning consent. I see it as goodbye unregistered electrician on my patch, let me invite a good man, who has worked hard for his place in the market and pays his subs in to replace you. Ta ta, that road over there is the quickest way out of here.

As for the polish electrician.. I've met him now. Why oh why is that man not registered and practicing his trade legally? He's really good and not so bad at English, compared to my Polish. But conflict of interest and all that.

These might just be seeds of change. EDF prosecuting. One local council prosecuting.

Maybe?

Zs
 23 July 2010 12:34 AM
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rocknroll

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LOL , got a couple from M&S but I tend to buy my work suits at Burtons, they are a good fit.

As you get closer to the LA you will see that prosecutions will take place all the time, generally this is only for the major issues like, building without planning permission, structural work , footings, drains and roofs etc;

Electrical, plumbing, gas, windows and furniture are minor issues and normally relate to quality of workmanship, if after a period of time the matter is not resolved then Trading Standards may investigate and where there are safety issues H&S could be involved.

Generally most of these minor issues are resolved within the time period either by the consumer/contractor rectifying the outstanding items or the consumer using another contractor and it is then up to the consumer if they want to make a formal complaint.

Good luck, I hope it proves fruitful for you.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Edited: 23 July 2010 at 12:46 AM by rocknroll
 23 July 2010 01:20 AM
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deleted_37_ELO

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I agree with ZS the quicker the unregistered types are found out by the labc the better for all of the niceic-approved contractors. These scams like napit who con the domestic installers to think they are electricians should be closely scrutinised by trading standards as the part p scams are only registration companies not a part of the electrical safety council that promote the industry and safety. Many of the part p scams promise testing and industrial certification but their criteria is less than the JIB would require and this is the minimum



Cheers
 23 July 2010 06:44 AM
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normcall

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Strangely, I rarely get work in that direction, even though it's less than a mile across the fields.
Have you lot got it in for anyone who doesn't join your club? Remember, it's only a bit of paper (like a £400 note!) and the carrying thereof is not a guarantee of high quality.

Once the 'registration' bodies get their act together, things may get better. I'm not holding my breath, though.

-------------------------
Norman
 23 July 2010 07:46 AM
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CMElectrical

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Originally posted by: normcall

Strangely, I rarely get work in that direction, even though it's less than a mile across the fields.

Have you lot got it in for anyone who doesn't join your club? Remember, it's only a bit of paper (like a £400 note!) and the carrying thereof is not a guarantee of high quality.



Once the 'registration' bodies get their act together, things may get better. I'm not holding my breath, though.


Agreed, same with being qualified, dont mean *****! There are bad electricians that are qualified or not.

Regards
Carl.

-------------------------
Regards
Carl.
 23 July 2010 10:22 AM
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Ricicle

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We digress, but I would have no qualms about going head to head with some of the rubbish 'approved contractor' firms that I have seen do work in the past at my place of work.

These companies maybe do have one or two decent sparks, and possibly a clever designer back at the office, but some of the day to day guys I wouldn't pay with chocolate coins !

-------------------------
Empty barrels make the most noise.
 23 July 2010 10:51 AM
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OMS

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LOL , got a couple from M&S but I tend to buy my work suits at Burtons, they are a good fit.


Could I interest you in a pale lemon two piece - single breasted with turn ups and front pleats acquired from a very dubious boutique in Antwerp from a very muscular blond chap with a moustache and a limp handshake circa 1985 -

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 23 July 2010 11:29 AM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: OMS

LOL , got a couple from M&S but I tend to buy my work suits at Burtons, they are a good fit.


Could I interest you in a pale lemon two piece - single breasted with turn ups and front pleats acquired from a very dubious boutique in Antwerp from a very muscular blond chap with a moustache and a limp handshake circa 1985 -

OMS


I remember it well, those were the days, got to say it would go well with my hi-viz jacket though.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 23 July 2010 11:50 AM
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OMS

Posts: 19433
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got to say it would go well with my hi-viz jacket though.


This conversation is taking on distinct overtones of YMCA bias there RnR

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 23 July 2010 11:53 AM
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OMS

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No question, the building firm are going to be prosecuted for this so I thought you might like to know that it does happen.


I don't suppose you know what for Madam - damage to equipment belonging to EDF or for breaches of H&S legislation by HSE

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 23 July 2010 07:59 PM
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Zs

Posts: 2780
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My Hi Viz is hot pink. I love it so much. Daft but true. Lemon yellow not my colour though.

Well grasshopper, I don't know for sure what they will prosecute for but I took it to be for leaving an installation in a seriously dangerous state. The bakelite surround of the connections was completely gone and just the inner terminals remained dangling. It turned out to be a TT that took 3 stakes to get the Ze to an acceptable level. So what I was looking at and generously suggesting a TNCS which needed connecting better, was in fact a ropey bit of DIY mashing together.

In a way this is a shame. If you look at the first fix done by the original installer it's smart. The new chap isn't struggling to get his head around it and maybe the few things that are wrong would have been seen to before completion. Anyone who has worked on a construction site will know that the supply could have been smacked with a scaffolding plank, or prized off the wall by some ignorant oik in an attempt to move it. But to leave it like that, completely exposed and live . . .

Norm, it's not about the club aspect and I think you know that of me. There is a recession going on right outside our front doors, right now. Survival of the fittest. I took the decision to conform to the government requirements, get proper paperwork for myself and provide proper paperwork I hope. He who thinks he can come onto my patch and put my potential customers in danger like this because it is a handy short cut to a few quid might as well be threatening to harm my babies. I'm lucky, I'm booked until October already. But I know those who aren't. Customers just don't know what to ask for from their electrician. Some of them phone up when they get their certificate and ask what it is or if they had to pay extra for it cos they didn't ask for one.

You're cool, you're outside of the Zs vapour cloud explosion Norm. And so are you Martyn.....just don't make me angry...you won't like me when I'm angry

Zs
 23 July 2010 08:08 PM
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sparkingchip

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Just watched DIY SOS on the telly, not something I do on a regular basis, anyway the Building Inspector pointed out the local Electrician is not allowed to sign off Billy's work.

I think Billy is actually part P registered and so allowed to sub-contract to the local Electrician, so technically the BI may be wrong in this case, but it was good to hear her raising the issue on prime time telly.

Andy
 23 July 2010 08:17 PM
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John Peckham

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Andy

I did not see the programme but by "sign off" I assume the inspector meant "notify". None of the scheme providers permit the notification of someone else's work. They are not allowed to as the government have told them so. Only the installer can self certify and notify his/her own work.

Billly was inducted in to the NICEIC so should be able to notify his own work unless he did not keep up his registration.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 23 July 2010 11:02 PM
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sparkingchip

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I was refering to the requirement that if you are registered, then any sub contractors you use must also be registered, preventing part P notifiable work being carried out by unregistered people without the supervision of the Building Inspector. Technically I suppose the local electrician would have to pay Billy for his work to be able to sign it off.

Alternatively if Billy is NICEIC he could sign off the local electricians work, but again I suppose he would have to pay him to make the correct contract between them.

It was good the Building Inspector brought these matters to the public's attention, it was also an a frank admission that the work is not actually done by the folks fronting up the TV show.

Andy
 23 July 2010 11:02 PM
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topmark

Posts: 124
Joined: 27 March 2009

so,all nic approved contractors are the dogs dangly bits,all napit members are domestic labourers.

very enlightning and informative ELO,[as usual]

cheers
 24 July 2010 04:51 PM
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amooramin

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Well, ...Dear ELO
Bad electrician could be registered with NAPIT or NICEIC or any other Scheme provider and good electrician may not be registered by any of them. I have seen many jobs of NICEIC Approved contractors those were disgrace of electrical industry. Even my apprentice do so much better job than them. I believe the point of Zs post was something else at all. Hope one day all decent electricians can live and work together despite their SCHEME PROVIDER. Best of luck 4 u.
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