I mean this in all sincerity when I say I am continually amazed at the depth of wisdom and experience on here, and the elegence with which you all get your points across.

Seems the one common theme is we're all trying to do the right thing.

Guess that's what makes us British - we forget how good we really are

**Edit**

I would also ask if possible that we could all let the thread lie too now thanks. I'm genuinely touched by how sincere some of you are, and thanks to you I have enough information now to make the decision myself, and the last thing I want is friction developing between other forum members because of me. That really isn't going to make my day.

So thanks so much to you all - I'll take it from here

Edited: 13 May 2010 at 07:33 PM by adder6

A lot of Industrial and commercial electrical installations are not rocket science either pretty mundane stuff really its just that some would have you believe that !

True - big doesn't equal more complex - however sectors other than domestic housing will usually have a far greater range of services that require perhaps a deeper understanding of electrical engineering and the interaction with other trades along with a different range of craft skills.

It's not often that there is a need to deal with conduit/trunking tray/micc/swa for example in a house and neither is there a requirement to consider much beyond the use of standard pre designed conventional circuits.

So I would have to say that domestic installation would tend toward a lower echelon if there is such a thing as a heirarchy amongst electricians

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option

Hi

Yes I agree I think there is a pecking order of sparks out there. the poor old house basher being at the bottom , whose at the top then?

The thread has run its course now. Let's leave it there

"The thread hasn't run its course"not just yet
If you please

Certainly not after reading the whole of it, in one crescendo of emotions
Your feelings of inadequacy may be confined to your percieved abilities as an electrican or they may have wider reasons

If a person has the the ability to sweep a toilet and he does that to the best of his ability,then I take my hat off to that man for doing the best that he may be capable of




Once again this thread as been turned by the self appointed elite amongst us, on this forum, to denegrate and ridicule the abilities and achievements of the domestic spark

I stated in another thread that I found it puzzling why they frequent this forum, where so many, who post on here, are that ridiculed subject

When you are faced with intellect and knowlege as posessed by the likes of a physicist or cosmologist or such,their ramblings betray their self satisfied, sad, and mistaken assessment of their own standing in society
Little corporals maybe, talking down to the ranks whilst being pygmies in comparison to the generals
What a concieted bunch they them to be

Continually refering to electricans with the derogatory term "house bashers"
" how dare you have such freedom to make those insulting remarks"

You talk as if an house basher by its very nature is incapable of the lofty hights reached by yourselves

Respect can be found sweeping the toilet,it can be found "housebashing"
It is seldom found in ridicule

The electricans who perform in the domestic market should not have to read the insulting comments on such a regular and continuous basis


Thats the view of an electrican

I may not work in the domestic market, but I respect those who do.

For the vast majority, who spent time, (years )to become that electrican,
the idea of sectioning off the trade, by acceptance of short course people, is a threat to their ideals of what constitutes an electrican,never mind part p and the ramblings of yourselves

They dont seem to grasp or understand the emotions and percieved unfairness that the changes made under the banner of part p which has produced those emotions

I take my hat off to philronron a chap with such a high level of training to take time to look down on those house bashing chaps,,,i bet he has the high level full scope no work napit

cheers

Hi

I carry out house rewires as well as commercial/industrial work and dont get offended by the term house basher just as I dont get offended by the term conduit basher , just banter to me

Regards

I agree, anyway the term 'House Basher' aptly describes what we have to spend quite a bit of time doing when working in domestic premises.

I know you do not want this topic to continue, but like all the other posters, I think you are the sort of person needed in the industry. Firstly, passing 2391 is something that a lot of electricians who have done a registered apprenticeship fail and more importantly, you know your limitations. I did over three years full time education in electrical/electronic engineering, have worked on everything from domestic to 33KV and still come across things on ordinary installations which I have never seen before. You are only ignorant if you fail to recognize that you do not know something. This forum, whilst being extremely unforgiving of idiots, is still the best source of advice and support to people who genuinely need advice and are trying to do a good job.

Hear Hear!
I'm still learning and trying to be competent (without success mostly, I confess)

-------------------------
Norman

Our Motto is :-

We the unwilling
Attempt the impossible for the ungratefull
We have done so much, with so little , for so long
That we are now qualified to do anything with nothing

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik

Hi adder6

first of all I would like to commend you for having the guts to admit what
we have been saying all along with these part pee eletrical courses that take your money & delude these people into thinking they are trained electricians who then in turn delude the public.
though on reading your post I would say you are more competent than most of these guys as having done the 2391 it was quite a challenging
exam or was... I suspect its been dumbed down now due to the low pass rate even so passing that is an achievement that I doubt many of the P brigade could pass. this is even more evident as the part P cartels dropped the 2391 as a requirement. all that is required is you know how to turn on a loop tester. however the fact you are aware of your limits is a good thing & Im sure you will quickly learn the rest . but this is why we need more Apprentiships & less of the intstan,t electrician for cash courses

The term 'house basher', 'cottage walloper' or even 'conduit basher' has never been deemed offensive to the old skool, its only the new skool who are a bit more sensitive now, perhaps the introduction of that complicated electronic device the RCD and a simple exam such as the 2391 has earned them the right to be called 'domestic electrical engineer'.

I remember well the early days when it was C&G part A & B then C&G part 1 & 2 80% of the class were only interested in completing these basic parts eager to get out into the world and earn loads of money 'house bashing' I think £35 a day on sites when for the rest of us who wanted to progress to C and beyond to Uni to be an electrical engineers or in my case electrical and mechanical engineer would probably earn £35 a week or pro rata for the next 20 years and is probably true to this day.

The C&G electrician is what it is, a fairly basic trade mostly manual work with limited thought process no different to C&G dog groomer or C&G hairdresser, the construction industry has often classed the electrician, plumber, bricklayer and carpenter as a semi-skilled trade with the electricians mate, plumbers mate, labourers and ground workers as an unskilled trade with the skilled label going to site managers, site engineers etc; which is probably about right.

Whatever your personal opinion of Part P is, at the end of the day it has been responsible for increasing the awareness of the public and improving the standard with the all important thing accountability, and reducing the level of 'cowboys, the LA's dont make a profit from this legislation, I know that a lot of people have made plenty of money by opening up training establishments etc; but is it not a case of you objecting to this but really p!ssed because you didnt have the foresight to sieze on a business opportunity when it was staring you in the face.

Recessions have been around for a few hundred years and you cant blame Part P, Immigration, the government etc; it a world wide phenomena, you wanted the good life of borrow borrow borrow and spend spend spend so now its payback time so stop crying.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

You mean they no longer do the A, B and C C&G?
I had to do S1, S2 and S3.

-------------------------
Norman

Rocknroll

Oh righto so were all on par with dog groomers as far as skill goes
well you are putting yourself on a pedestal do pray tell us what qualifications you have that are so superior to our lowly dog groomers city & guilds
as for public awareness of part pee. I would suggest you talk to some of them & ask what they think part pee is I think the answers will shock you
& off the few that do know what it is regard it as an un necessary extra cost.... or jobs for the boys
that,s the reality we live in... don,t know about the fantasy land your in.

"the few that do know what it is regard it as an un necessary extra cost.... or jobs for the boys"

Let's see, remind me what extra £££ Part P costs an existing qualified trading electrician.......Scheme fees and half a day for an assessment each year which can be viewed as CPD (or less time per year that most non Part P traders spend talking non productively about it) and around £3 to notify and provide insurance for each job.

Hardly a great extra cost..........Unless of course the trader tells the public that the costs arise due to getting qualifications, publications, insurance, test gear etc which is akin to shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to telling the public about Part P, or have I hit the nail on the head?

Regards

BOD

perspicacious

Oh right Now you are telling me something now
I was not aware that part p membership also included liability insurance
yes now I can understand the £500 fee.

I think there will be quite a few people who will come to the same conclusion up and down the country. I do feel for them a bit though because there was a contagious spirit of borrowing out there and I think some mistook this for wealth. I also think the Government had a hand in promoting and even engineering it that way. Unfortunately there are many families out there with young children who will be learning hard lessons soon and probably be very confused about it.

Regards, John.

Hi

Talking of house bashers etc what exactly is the definition of an electrical installer? I see this term used a lot these days


Regards