Hi,

Having been through the instant electrician stuff and acquiring 16th edition through a multi-choice exam and then acquiring 2391 through a written exam I was back in 2008 issued a full scope ticket to self-certify. I have never served a proper apprenticeship.

I am presently working for a medium sized contractor with some big customers. One thing is becoming ever more apparent. I look back now with mounting horror that anyone could ever have issued me with anything that would allow me to self-certify or consider myself an 'electrician'. I'm beginning to feel as if I've been had.

I think all 2391 demonstrates is a general aptitude for the theory. I do not believe it independently demonstrates competence to test or install in any way. Now I've been through all the garbage and had my attitude adjusted I'm beginning to learn. But was once sold to me as a short bridge to success, now seems more like staring into the abyss

The abyss being the true scale of the work required to really approach a state that could be genuinely termed 'competent'. It will take many years for me, and that's if I even last it, if something more tempting comes along. It also occured to me that surely the government must know what's happening here?

I can't believe looking back that the sh*te I installed for my assessment was ever passed? Seems this whole Part P acquisition and that's it you're done - mentality is producing dangerous 'electricians' who are both incompetent and also have the totally wrong attitude - they are not willing to learn as they have been bigged up and brainwashed into believing they are fit for the job.

At present time the only thing I'd say I feel confident doing would be putting say a new ring main in or something like that. I wouldn't even touch a board change without supervision and I wouldn't even think of doing a large scale job alone without paying for Building Control to assess it and tell me what to put right before they passed it. The thought of me self-certifying now is a joke. To think the government were happy for me to do it in 2008???

If anyone ever journey's through here in years to come thinking of going this route I would implore you DON'T DO IT! The best thing would be to just get in on a low wage with another firm and learn from the ground up.

Seems this is a dangerous money making scheme. Perhaps too many people are stopping smoking

Don't take this the wrong way mate but your not an electricain and no one ever claimed you would be - you trained at best to be a semi skilled installer in a domestic environment using conventional pre designed circuits.

When all the skilled tradesmen were busy on the big commercial jobs there was a need to service the booming housing market and keep some control over it - hence Part P and the advent of the semi skilled electrical domestic installer. Nothing to do with safety, just imposing control over teh "wire, fire and f**k off" brigade

Please don't try to convince yourself that domestic electrical installation is rocket science - it isn't.

Market forces will soon weed out the dross and leave a scenario where those who have no business in the construction sector disapear in short order.

Think of it as right sizing the market place



I think you miss the point - it isn't the role of the BCO to act as a backstop for technical incompetence - just to obtain your signature for posterity in case it all goes horribly wrong

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option

LOL I can see this forum is going to be one of those 'conspiracy theory' days.

regards

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"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
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"Oh! The drama of it all."
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"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
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Save me a seat on the Zog shuttle RnR - I have a feeling I would feel right at home

Regards

OMS

Have we reached the age of stupid yet ?

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Failure is always an option

LOL First class of course, we have to stick together.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

LoL - but of course, mon ami - they didn't teach us to be leaders of men for nothing you know

Serve and Obey

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option

OMS thanks, I appreciate that seriously. That's given the child (me) the adult's perspective on what's actually happening. I wish someone else had took the time to bring me down to size before all this nonsense in my life started. It's been a long time coming.

I'm not so much worried about domestic now as I have had the luxury of doing alot of re-wires under highly skilled supervision and almost always I am told my work is of a very good standard for that area of the industry (nowadays anyway).

The firm I work for though introduces me to alot of industrial stuff, and that's when I really see just where I stand. Absolutely nowhere!

Having said that though I do still believe that even the domestic area can throw up lots of problems in the area of fault finding that fall way outside the range of a semi-skilled installer which is what I basically am. Over and over again I see I know basically jack s**t when facing a new situation.

I really can only offer my most heartfelt apologies to those I was insubordinate to in my early days on this forum. So the child finally begins to learn where he stands in the world of adults.

I am not mistaken though in my memory that during my short education we really were duped into believing we could wire anything. I even remember being told "you can go out and wire anything".

The fact that I believed it and others do too is what concerns me.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option

Awww thanks that's a great post

Pull the other one adder, you said this on 21 April 2010 :-

"now my old Part P ticket which I never used anyway has expired so I cannot self-certify"

"Most of my duties also include filling out NIC certifcates with their great software package released in 2008. I'm very comfortable with 7671 and I'm at the point now where I need no guidance at all, a shabby hand written site produced report 80 odd pages long lands on my desk and I can process it all without any issues whatsoever. Got sparks ringing ME up asking what size cable they can use for a given reference method and breaker type! "

So since retraining you've been employed to write tickets up for your employer because he wouldn't let you loose in the real world, nuff said. You've only got yourself to blame. Did you really think skills can be taught in a classroom.

I see you are retraining for a new career, good luck.

Regards, John.

That it not correct sir, my duties are limited to writing reports which are then assessed by my supervisor before going out. And your perception is not correct - although entirely understandable.

It appears I've done too much damage here, and some are not willing to forgive at all - which I understand. I think my continued presence here will just cause problems.

@windycom

I sincerely wish you well sir, I am sorry for trouble I caused

Almost as bad as passing a driving test then ... a few tens of hours rudimentary training, one test (perhaps in a few parts these days) and you're deemed safe for the next 50 years with no further mandatory checks. Such is life.

- Andy.

To be honest, you never in the past required anyone's permision or any qualifications to certify or consider your self as an electrician. You still don't. Alll you ever required was to consider yourself competent.
The introduction of Part P now means that at least scheme members have some form of qualification, or assesment.
It also means that the self certification bodies, the LABCs and even instrument makers such as Fluke and Megger make money that they would not otherwise have made.

Part P has made better Electrians.

Part P has made the whole domestic market safer.

Part P has benefited the industry as a whole.

Part P has stopped the cowboys.

Part P has helped reduce climate change.

Part P has save £millions for the country as a whole.
Part P has resulted in a change of government.
Part P has played a large part in reducing world poverty & disease.
Part P has given everybody extra income & more liesure time.
If you want Part P to do much more than this then you are going to be disappointed!

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Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik

LOL and yet another conspiracy theory!

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------

Well that's me out then

I'm going through a rather steep learning curve the last few weeks/months. To be honest as times passes I'm becoming glad just to be doing the boss's dirty admin laundry. Glad just to have a f**king job too, and so I should be. Also glad to have an attitude that's approaching something you might finally regard as 'normal' and perhaps even 'grateful'.

I never thought I'd never see the day (so perhaps did many others) .....

Here comes the finger wagging adder6. And if you don't listen good then I am going to lick my hanky and wash your face.

I detect a retrospective low self esteem going on there. Swiftly updated by a quote of one of your old posts. Forget it pal. You took a legal and available route to becoming a registered electrician and now, as the knowledge starts to bed in as you pick up experience you wonder how they ever let you in? You will be surprised how much you did know back then, and they did let you in. Many don't even put themselves up for such an assessment. If your work had been dangerous they would not have passed it.

I often think of a sump- pump installation I did which I would do very differently now. I didn't know back then how to link the earth in bits of armoured cable smartly. But I did know they were to be linked because I knew a bit about the science of all this and they are. Years have gone by since then. What wakes me up at night is the thought of another electrician looking in that box. But not whether or not they are safe.

One of the things I notice about the few women in the game is that they will become registered very early on in their career. I suppose that is because the girls are asked to prove qualification on paper more often than the men. Being more open by nature, I know several lady electricians who behind the scenes will admit to a huge lack of confidence in this game. A real fear of not knowing enough and of rejection. I imagine that this is actually no different for the newly qualified man, it's just that it is kindof anacceptable for you to voice such self doubt. I say it is absolutely ok for anyone to carry diagrams of, say, intermittent switches in the glove box of the van. Time comes when you don't need them. It's called growth. Long live the collins DIY series.

I disagree with OMS with reference to his attitude to domestic installation. The men are being sorted out from the boys these days. In order to do well in general domestic work you now need to understand far more of our science. You learn it from this forum adder6 so you have to stay. You won't last out there in domestic these days if you can't get your head around back EMF and inductance issues. Everything will go pop the moment you pull an LED out of your pocket if you can't. See the guardian on 10th May about low energy phillips lamps messing with virgin media boxes? Lots of electricians knew where that article was going....What we have to know is why, and how best to sort it. Electricity still kills at half an amp. Sorry OMS but you mustn't make the domestic electrician feel like untermench just because yours is bigger. The physics is relative.

Is part P a dangerous money making scheme? No. It was a good idea brought about by a dreadful death. It is not perfect but it has the potential to be so. You were accepted as a registered electrician and you now voice doubts about that......just think of all those who don't even fill in a form because they know they will not get through. I'd call that a cracking good weed-out of the dross, without any public money being spent.

So you get beaten up from time to time. Want to compare forum bruises? This forum is damned near essential to your staying in touch. If you participate you will become so much better at your job. If you don't...then see you at the counter in the wholesaler where you are the one asking why a double insulated fitting has only got a blue and a brown terminal inside it.

And finally, as they say on the news and I don't think I'm overstepping the mark here...Bod and I were working together on a site last week, a grand estate with gardeners and housekeepers (and cheap toilet paper in the guest loo). Note first; I worked with BOD for five days and it didn't half take some courage to accept that commission. Hundreds of readers of this forum would be too scared to turn up for that. You just have to do these things when the chance comes along. It was the best fun too.

But we were squarely told off, and insulted, for taking a tea break whilst inspecting in the gardener's cottage (aka free mansion). We were made aware of how far down the food chain two electrical inspectors are on such a grand estate. An awful thing to go through, and my fault. But in a month's time they will see what we found on that estate and realise how much they need the BOD brain. Now, as a normal level sparky, I could go back and find that fault in the gardener's cottage, with a flask of tea to drink in the garden and a cap to doff at him. But d'you know what? I'm a touch busy for another bruise. And so should you be.

Do not retire from this forum. Bruises only hurt when you press them.

Zs

I'm not that much of idiot sir I understand the principles of a Class 2 appliance

That's a lovely and long thought out post. Makes alot of sense to me. What I really have to ask though, is do I feel confident working in the industry. The truth is I don't. I also really have to wonder to myself what it is about my present circumstances that I'm so desperate to improve or get away from?

I work for a firm who treat me well - compared to others, they never let me out on site alone I'm always just 'back-up' and nothing I do ever gets the lid screwed down on it without a top man looking at it first, so I'm totally safe in that respect, I'm not disabled, not living in a country where I can't vote, not wading through disembowelled (alive) bodies in Afghanistan like the guy I spoke to at work today once was (red caps), I have a home a job, experts to consult at work if I need guidance, etc... the list goes on.

Realistically speaking, could I be in a more fortunate position? I don't even have any dependents or relationship - I'm single. Why would I want to put ripples in the water when I can just respect the expertise of others who need those jobs to feed their families and I can just grow at a very slow pace taking care of only the things I'm really competent at like admin and organisational work. Sure I'm paid peanuts, but I'm happy.

Thanks so much for a lovely post and I will keep my mind open to new material for sure - but I'm also going to make sure my feet stay flat on the floor and if I only ever get what I've already got now that's good enough for me

Christ - it's like being back at school - I've had my face mopped a few times by matrons hanky, not that good for your street cred I can tell you



If that's true then it's an appalling reflection on engineering - we have quite a number of hugely talented female engineers and aside from a few outrageous demands for pink site boots they get treated the same as the boys - and in very many cases outperform thier peers usually because of a better undertstanding of what they are trying to achieve in a broad sense rather than diving in and getting bogged down in the weeds like the boys do. So much so that we have appointed one of our former female trainees to the only permanent engineering position on offer - and that's after she decided to leave us and go for a masters in sustainable electrical engineering and lighting



I'm not sure you really undertand my attitude to domestic work Madam - the point I usually try to make is that it's not rocket science, so lets not make it out to be something it's not and disallow plenty of competent people from giving it a go in favour of a bit of a closed shop operated by those who were lucky enough to get a long transition from being a schoolboy to an electrician back when we had more traditional apprenticeships and still retain the shuttered mentality that they must be something special . Given thier way, you wouldn't be a spark would you - so I'm actually defending people like adder not condeming him.

I like to think I can spot a crisis of confidence when I see one



LoL - never my intention, look back over the forum and I think you'll find plenty of evidence of me encouraging peple to do more rather than treating them like untermensch. Like this perhaps:





Come on Zs - you know that's not true - Part P was in the pipeline well before that incident. It was intened to capture and control the "wire, fire & f**k off" brigade that emerged from the 90's recession and the terminal decline of heavy industry in the UK.



LoL - isn't that my line - but essentially yes, that was one of the primary intentions of Part P, particularly as the fall back position of a nationalized supply indstry was also swept away - it needed the housebashers to up the game - and if they wouldn't do it voluntarily then it was going to be imposed on them - which is where we are now.

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option

It's called life my friend - do you thing you are the only person who has suffered a crisis of confidence, questioned the meaning of life, decided that he is no good at this or that or wondered what the future holds.

That's right - it happens to most of us to a greater or lesser degree - you just need to get your head up far enough to see the way forward, decide what path you want to take and then march on.



Let me give you a bit of advice - sod this feet flat on the floor lark, plenty of people will want to keep you there, you need to aim for the sky, and do what you want and what your honest appraisal of your own abilities will let you do - at worst you'll hit the bloody ceiling but that's better than still being stuck to floor

Regards

OMS

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Failure is always an option