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Topic Title: "Cowboy Builders" Channel 5
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Created On: 20 April 2010 09:35 PM
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 20 April 2010 09:35 PM
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stureid

Posts: 843
Joined: 28 November 2004

Anyone see it?

They got a builder to install a halogen floodlight on the back of a house, then got a 'Part P Electrician' (whatever that is) to inspect it.

According to their expert, 'Part P clearly says' that a switch has to be at least 50-60cm away from a sink, and the twin and earth in the pipework boxing means that the sink is likely to become live!

These programmes always seem to let themselves down by hiring people who overstate dangers and quote regulations that don't exist.

-------------------------
Regards
Stuart

http://www.redelectrical.co.uk
http://www.redrenewables.co.uk
 20 April 2010 09:41 PM
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Grobbyman

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Stuart,
You forgot tje bit that wemt something like this, "You can't have a bit of normal cable outside it's got to be shielded".
Rgds
George
 20 April 2010 09:47 PM
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stureid

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Yeah that was a good one too!

And when he said that a small child could poke his or her finger into the pattress box through the knockout on the side... the inner knockout looked intact!

Fair enough the job was a botch, and they did (briefly) mention LABC notification and self-cert schemes, but they have to over-egg the pudding don't they!

There was one on last year where they got an 'electrical engineer' to set a trap for a cowboy spark. He took the lid off the consumer unit and dived straight in with no safe isolation. Where do they get em from?

-------------------------
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Stuart

http://www.redelectrical.co.uk
http://www.redrenewables.co.uk
 20 April 2010 09:54 PM
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leckyles

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yes George, and in fact he unprofessionally described it as wire as opposed to its correct terminology of cable.
I expect a few sparks will get unwarranted stick from customers tomorrow due to those well meaning ,but netherthelerss ,random comments from the Part P Electrician

leckyles
 20 April 2010 10:16 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: Grobbyman
You forgot tje bit that wemt something like this, "You can't have a bit of normal cable outside it's got to be shielded".

This was PVCI, twin & earth, directly entering the fitting from the rear, it was exposed to UV radiation and should have been protected.

Regards
 20 April 2010 10:22 PM
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Grobbyman

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As you say it was entering the fitting, directly from the rear.
How much UV radiation was that bit of cable being exposed to?.
How long would it take to cause serious degradation of the cable?
Ten, twenty or thirty years?.

Best regards
george
 21 April 2010 07:10 AM
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normcall

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Global warming and/or volcanic dust will resolve that 'problem'.

-------------------------
Norman
 21 April 2010 11:33 AM
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RRichard

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And they wrongly mentioned again that to even 'touch' the boiler you had to be Gas safe registered, even though the fault they made only needed the water pressure topping up. They left that one alone as apparently a registered plumber did turn up.

I dont agree with jaymack about the tw&e, although flex would have been better. Only one screw holding the light up and that cable looked to tight for any maintenance
 21 April 2010 12:41 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: RRichard
I dont agree with jaymack about the tw&e, although flex would have been better.


Some do, some don't. I prefer to protect it when mounted externally, it's not a hassle to run it inside plastic conduit (Black or White to suit the background) with proper boxes and flex where necessary. Apart from the solar protection aspect, it looks a proper job. T & E clipped directly to outside walls looks unsightly, I have sensitive eyes y'see.
And then there's 522.11.1 to contend with.

Regards
 21 April 2010 01:10 PM
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RB1981

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Didn't see it myself (yet), but I take it this is it?

Cowboy Builders
 21 April 2010 01:46 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: RB1981
Didn't see it myself (yet), but I take it this is it?
Cowboy Builders

That's the one, the hole for the cable was drilled in the wall from the inside, resulting in the damage done to the outside brickwork. I prefer to drill such holes, upwards on a slope from the outside and seal the cable entry. The guy was also holding up the light fitting and using the mounting plate as a template, to drill the single fixing hole. That guy must get around a lot though, I come across his efforts everywhere.

Regards
 22 April 2010 12:15 AM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: stureid

'Part P clearly says' that a switch has to be at least 50-60cm away from a sink, and the twin and earth in the pipework boxing means that the sink is likely to become live!


That made me laugh nice to know it clearly states you have a choice between 50 & 60 cm even it it was a regulation i'm sure it would be specific.

Did you see the guy check for bonding?... no me either but the sink is still likely to become live I'm so glad I'm not a Part P electrician


On that point are builders Part A builders?

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Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 22 April 2010 12:24 AM
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spinlondon

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Does anyone actually know whether T&E deteriorates when exposed to UV radiation?
 22 April 2010 12:36 AM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: spinlondon

Does anyone actually know whether T&E deteriorates when exposed to UV radiation?


It is known as UV degradation, and is one form of polymer degradation. Sensitive polymers include thermoplastics, such as polypropylene and polyethylene as well as speciality fibres like aramids. UV absorption leads to chain degradation and loss of strength at sensitive points in the chain structure. They include tertiary carbon atoms, which in polypropylene occur in every repeat unit. Aramid rope must be shielded with a sheath of thermoplastic if it is to retain its strength.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 22 April 2010 12:56 AM
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spinlondon

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Sorry RnR is that a yes or a no?
The reason I'm asking, is because i've been informed of many things regarding the external use of T&E.
I've been informed that white will reflect UV,
that painting the T&E will protect it,
that painting the T&E will accelerate deteriation as the paint will react with the plastic,
that the colouriser protects against UV
and that the deteriation is so minimal, the cable will reach the end of it's expected life before the UV deteriation has had any real effect.
 22 April 2010 01:09 AM
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rocknroll

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Yes all polymers degradate under UV light, obviously the manufacturers will look for ways to slow down the degradation, I suppose the answer is go to the manufacturer and ask how is the product affected by UV radiation.

Posts like this remind of something I came across and post, this must be the sixth year I have seen a council house at the junction I have stop at with a 2.5mm T&E slung over the roof from the front room window, the workshop at the back with milling machine, boring machine and what else is still running, still burns bright at night when I go past with a chuckle.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 22 April 2010 11:05 AM
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AJJewsbury

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Does anyone actually know whether T&E deteriorates when exposed to UV radiation?

Some does, some doesn't (to any significant extent). For years is was standard practice to use T&E outdoors (it was even listed as acceptable in the OSG), but some brands evidently had problems. As the BS for T&E doesn't (as far as I know) have any requirement for UV resistance the problem cables couldn't be declared as faulty, so even though the vast majority of cables would be fine, it's not a feature that could be necessarily relied on.

that painting the T&E will accelerate deteriation as the paint will react with the plastic

I'd hope not! Again a few years ago it was standard practice to buckle clip cables to skirting boards & architraves - where they'd inevitably be painted over (making a nice inconspicuous job!) - although again it's maybe not something that could be absolutely proved by reference to standards.

- Andy.
 22 April 2010 11:24 AM
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normcall

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"a few years ago it was standard practice to buckle clip cables to skirting boards & architraves"

Buckle clips are so much neater for a single cable than these new fangled plastic bits. Mind you my stocks are getting low of C1 and C2 clips. Having said that, these new solid cored cables really are almost as bad as pyro to easily lay flat once bent a bit.

-------------------------
Norman
 22 April 2010 04:16 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: normcall
Buckle clips are so much neater for a single cable than these new fangled plastic bits. Mind you my stocks are getting low of C1 and C2 clips.


No need to worry - Installation buckle clip suppliers: -

http://www.saren.co.uk/
 22 April 2010 08:18 PM
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Alexg

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Just watched the online video - thanks RB1981.

The job in question was clearly very rough, however deadly as was described?! Can't see how he could say that. There's no evidence the cable inside the boxing was even touching the pipe, and even if it was I can't see it melting through the cable to cause a live connection to the pipe. I recently rewired a house where an early T+E was led on top of a 22mm radiator flow pipe under the floor board directly above the boiler, must of been there 25 years +, the cable showed no signs of melting. I've seen this quite a few times and never have the cables shown signs of melting through the outer sheath.

As for the 3" of exposed T+E outside, hrmm I don't like T+E outside, but again I've seen T+E that has been outside since may parents even thought about having me and it hasn't degraded to a point of cracking.

On the positive side he has fused it down with a fused spur (unsure weather the standard 13A fuse is left in there, probably is) and he appears to have used 2.5mm from the socket he spurred off of.

The "part p expert" on there clearly didn't have a clue, he didn't talk liked a seasoned engineer and clearly has no idea of the regs, what was this "Part P clearly states you should use 50 - 60 cm in an area like this?!! I hope he is laughed at by his colleges following their viewing of this programme. Idiot.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » "Cowboy Builders" Channel 5

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