IET logo
 
IET
Decrease font size
Increase font size
Topic Title: Fire risk, commercial
Topic Summary: are we responsible for this?
Created On: 06 February 2010 09:55 AM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
<< 1 2 Previous Last unread
Search Topic Search Topic
Topic Tools Topic Tools
View similar topics View similar topics
View topic in raw text format. Print this topic.
 17 February 2010 10:54 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19895
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: westonpa

Graham,



Considering the work being done can you think of an example scenario where the contractor may get prosecuted if they have carried out their work to the relevant building/electrical standards and for/in the conditions described above......and then how they would then ensure this does not happen?



Regards.


Well the simple approach would be for the designer to advise his client of the client's duties under CDM and not to undertake design until that is done - as the rgulations require.

If this is a workplace the designer would be under a duty to consider such things as teh workplace regs (even if the client hasn't included such a requirement in his brief) - so issues such as fire safety need to be considered by the designer even if the client hasn't . Of course the designer cannot design specific elements of a system until teh client has furnished his risk assessments - what category would you design a fire alarm system to, for example, if you have no copy of the clients fire risk assessment.

Be very wary of becoming a designer under CDM if you don't understand the process would be my advise

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 17 February 2010 05:24 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for rocknroll.
rocknroll

Posts: 8903
Joined: 03 October 2005

I think you have to bear in mind that commercial premises are not treated with kid gloves anymore, the days of the 'man from the council' visiting you and a ticking orf for not informing them for change of use and 14 days to sort it are gone, we have done a few in the last couple of months and everything now is based on an 'inter agency approach', we had a large garage that was closed and then reopened without planning as a car wash. £8 to £15 for a jet wash etc;

Basically the boys in blue steam in and by the time we go in everybody is sitting on the floor in handcuffs, if your a contractor in the building tough your on the floor as well, you have the LA, H&S, IR and customs, border and immigration, DHSS, DVLA, EHO, drugs officers with their dogs, traffic police etc; 18 people were arrested and the one that drove off in his BMW wasted his time as by the time the M series sport and the EVO were after him he might as well have put his hands up saying 'fair cop guv'

10 vehicles and equipment impounded, very large amount of cash and documents impounded by the IR, 8 charged with benefit fraud, 4 who had passports and there is no evidence of them being in the country were taken to Gatwick the next day as they came from a non 'at risk' country, 1 has a stop at Frankfurt where he is needed for questioning, beds and two cookers in the garage area, the owner of the building arrested and charged with various offences to do with planning, environmental health and H&S, plus plenty of criminal charges as well.

I know you have representatives from 'Liberty' and others who are there taking photos and moaning about treating people like criminals by sitting them on the floor in handcuffs until they are processed but whilst you have industry moaning about a factory down the road that has suspect employees and practices such as we have to pay x thousands of pounds in taxes and rates and the public moaning about people who are here illegally taking their jobs, illegally claiming benfit you have to live with the 'zero tolerance' philosophy however draconian it seems.

The multi-agency approach has been tested extensively over the last couple of years and the benefit it has is it puts the eggs in one basket and until the lion is stamped on your forehead you aint going anywhere.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 17 February 2010 09:16 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Zs

Posts: 3035
Joined: 20 July 2006

Yes, I have an update.

I'm still there, having had a long chat with JP about it at the weekend, and with a fine industrial electrician whom I met on a site yesterday. On sunday I made a decision to finish this job, finish it to standard and leave it safe and looking smart. A proper job. No quit.

There are three 'rubs' on the job I took on, and four on the job I now know I am doing.

1) I'm on a price and I under estimated massively ( with E&OE on the bottom). See the word estimate? Well, I know that to fight for the extra would be spurious so let's call it a quote. In order to reconnect old circuits a great deal of unforseen time is going into tracing cables and checking earth continuity on the old trunking, making corners etc. etc. I'm going to get hit for about £2k of extra time. Mia Culpa. My problem.

2) Mr Raja Treating me with suspicion and as though I am ripping him off. I'm not, you know that. He'll get his installation complete and tested, and certificates when he pays me. I have put in an interim invoice but he disappeared to Pakistan for over a week and we only discussed it today. He'll be pleased with this job but until it's done he won't understand that. I understand that there was a family row about using me on account of being female. Which he lost. That sort of thing is rare and so be it.

3) Methadone boy. He's a bully and has found an outlet for his bullying. It takes about three minutes of me being alone on site with him before he comes and has a go at me. Unless it is about electrics I just say oh thank you for telling me that, I like clear speakers. He's quite a sad character really. He used to be in grange hill as quite a major part but after my time, and is now down to knicking the odd fiver from my purse. So I'll just ride this little storm.

4) The reason I posted this question...I now know what the warehouse will be used for.

My final paperwork will reflect my original estimate and the certificates will state what I have not provided. I'll do my best to avoid being negligent.

And if necessary I'll tell a judge about how I was told it was going to be used for retail storage and how they once asked me to pull the fuses every night so that it looks as though there is no electricity supply. And how methadone boy told the meter reader that the supply has been ripped out.........Plenty more of that if I need it.


Ref your comments; 50 Spark. You like to have a pop at me from time to time don't you? Looking at your early posts on here I see that I am very much on your lifetime territory. Fair play to you and your years of experience and I promise I'll not bother you with payment issues. But in my defence I've had a copy of the big red book since it first came out and I do know what a three phase RCD is I expect you could teach me a shed-load about how to connect this job. Sorry if I irritate you.

Ebee; Crikey no, not sarcastic at all and I love inventing corners for the trunking. Given enough time I could do that til the cows come home. Yes, geometry is fantastic. I did pattern and template development as part of my fabrication and welding C&G. One day they put an old oil can with a funnel shaped top and a spout on the desk in front of me and said 'apart from the handle, make that out of one piece of sheet steel with only x nunber of welds and present your drawings with it'. I couldn't do it today but it worked and I still have the drawings somewhere. I could get geeky about making shapes out of steel.

OMS and R&R can do no wrong, ever. And never do. Something to do with auto-association I'm afraid...the unrequited love of my life between the ages of 5 and about 8 was taken out of state school and sent to Haberdashers. Ahh. To this day I still go all gooey in the company of a Habs boy. I'd put my trunking lids over a puddle for you to walk on.

It'll be fine. It's a mare. I'm still there and at the moment I'm still legal.

Zs
 18 February 2010 10:25 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19895
Joined: 23 March 2004

OMS and R&R can do no wrong, ever. And never do. Something to do with auto-association I'm afraid...the unrequited love of my life between the ages of 5 and about 8 was taken out of state school and sent to Haberdashers. Ahh. To this day I still go all gooey in the company of a Habs boy. I'd put my trunking lids over a puddle for you to walk on.


Oh we can - and we frequently do (given a sporting chance and a good headstart anyway)

Just think of it as good general advise gained from a few years playing the game with the bigger boys - who are only interested in bottom line. When the chips are down, BS 7671 and a tidy install count for nowt when you get mixed up in the legals of a job - no one will worry a fig about well cut on site fabricated bends in the trunking if they see an opportunity to shift thier risk to you. Never forget that construction spends 10 times more on litigation than training - says something doesn't it.

Still, I guess all you can do now is take the hit and get out as clean as you can - but do learn the lesson. We may like to think that our pride in a job well done is worth something - but in the main it isn't worth anything in this tough old world we call contracting. Risk and reward is the phrase that should be uppermost when planning and pricing - not how well the trunking may go in.

It's all abouit getting your ducks in a row - what are you going to do, what are you not going to do, what you expect from your client - what do they expect from you. What roles and functions are you taking on - designers and principal contractors roles under CDM for example. What approvals are required - building control, planning change of use, fire approval etc etc.

These characters will make money from your errors - make no bones about it - so check your clients out before you start - if it smells risky then it will be - so price and act accordingly - better to lose a job on price than get slaughtered - try not to end up being the mug whose left wondering what he left out when the client accepts the price - ask why this client went out of his way to fight your corner - clearly you presented the best deal (or the softest target).

As for trunking lids and puddles you would like to think that all those years of training to be a future son of empire would have taught us some manners - it would be "after you m'dear" - and not just to see if it was fit for purpose


On sunday I made a decision to finish this job, finish it to standard and leave it safe and looking smart. A proper job. No quit.


My advice - don't put your pride in a job above good business sense - if you get the opportunity to walk away I would take it.

I hope it works out as well as possible - good luck

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 18 February 2010 11:14 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for rocknroll.
rocknroll

Posts: 8903
Joined: 03 October 2005

As for trunking lids and puddles you would like to think that all those years of training to be a future son of empire would have taught us some manners - it would be "after you m'dear" - and not just to see if it was fit for purpose


LOL Exactly what I was thinking!

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 18 February 2010 11:34 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19895
Joined: 23 March 2004

LOL Exactly what I was thinking!


Ahh - the old "Serve and Obey" ethos marks you for life doesn't it

That's what you get from only meeting the gals on saturday morning dance classes

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 24 February 2010 08:45 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



Zs

Posts: 3035
Joined: 20 July 2006

On the home stretch. Been going in when the place is empty. Just a nasty old bit of conduit as high as the sun to saw off, the bonding on the trunking (just to be sure) and connecting up at the DB and live testing to do then the lids can go on the trunking. Waiting for him to give me £70 odd to buy the breakers. I won't be able to sign it off properly though because they won't buy the RF smokes for the offices so there is likely to be connector block hanging out of the ceiling until then. Hey ho, but nearly there.

But, credit to those of you who do this kind of job (hight level trunking and tower shifting) on a regular basis. You must be fit....This, my friends, is a six-pack tummy. Too old for one of those so

Send chocolate.

Zs
 24 February 2010 09:00 PM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message



perspicacious

Posts: 7267
Joined: 18 April 2006

"This, my friends, is a six-pack tummy. Too old for one of those so

Send chocolate.

Zs"


I wouldn't want the blame for you becoming Toblerone shaped

Remember, I've seen evidence of how long chocolate survives once in in your possession

Regards

BOD
 25 February 2010 09:53 AM
User is offline View Users Profile Print this message


Avatar for OMS.
OMS

Posts: 19895
Joined: 23 March 2004

Guten Morgen kleiner Fuchs

the bonding on the trunking (just to be sure)


The earthing of the trunking, Zs - exposed conductive part and all that

This, my friends, is a six-pack tummy. Too old for one of those so

Send chocolate.


LoL - what is they say about inside every woman is a thin person screaming to get out - but you can usually shut her up with chocolate.


OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Fire risk, commercial

<< 1 2 Previous Last unread
Topic Tools Topic Tools
Statistics

See Also:



FuseTalk Standard Edition v3.2 - © 1999-2014 FuseTalk Inc. All rights reserved.