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Topic Title: Looking at renovating a house and avoiding Part P as best as I can
Topic Summary: Any advice? Experience?
Created On: 02 July 2009 02:03 AM
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 02 July 2009 12:28 PM
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ChrisGilbert

Posts: 136
Joined: 12 January 2003

I tried to give you some useful advice. Having access to calibrated euqipment is somewhat different from knowing how to do the tests and understand the results. I have helped the odd know-it-all with elec eng degress and years of DIY-ing their own electrics who rapidly realised there is more to doing a re-wire and consumer unit change to the Wiring and Buildings Regs than they ever realised and were grateful for my saving them lots of time and wasted money; they also learnt some new skills and enjoyed it, and didn't have to buy a number of tools needed to do the job.
 02 July 2009 12:42 PM
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apfear

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Originally posted by: ChrisGilbert

I tried to give you some useful advice. Having access to calibrated euqipment is somewhat different from knowing how to do the tests and understand the results. I have helped the odd know-it-all with elec eng degress and years of DIY-ing their own electrics who rapidly realised there is more to doing a re-wire and consumer unit change to the Wiring and Buildings Regs than they ever realised and were grateful for my saving them lots of time and wasted money; they also learnt some new skills and enjoyed it, and didn't have to buy a number of tools needed to do the job.


Wow, so unless I pay someone lots of money I can't understand equipment readouts? Don't be daft.

I really despair at the mentality of people at times. We're soon going to need a qualified person to blow up our bike tyres.

 02 July 2009 12:48 PM
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apfear

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Originally posted by: OMS Just pay the money to your LABC and then agree with them what your doing - would you still have these objections if you were building an extension or replacing thermal elements.
Planning permission I don't have a problem with. Paying someone for the privilege of improving something inside of my own house that affects only me, I do.
 02 July 2009 12:50 PM
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OMS

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really despair at the mentality of people at times. We're soon going to need a qualified person to blow up our bike tyres.


I wouldn't treat DSEAR so lightly if I was you - explosives can be dangerous don't you know

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 02 July 2009 12:51 PM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: apfear

Originally posted by: OMS

Just pay the money to your LABC and then agree with them what your doing - would you still have these objections if you were building an extension or replacing thermal elements.


Planning permission I don't have a problem with. Paying someone for the privilege of improving something inside of my own house that affects only me, I do.


Don't be so stupid man - if it was only you then I couldn't care less but your legacy in the national estate affects other people doesn't it - if you don't meet building regs regarding the distance apart on stair bannisters for example it probably doesn't worry you as an adult - but the couple who move in with a small child a few years later have an immediate strangulation hazard because you feel that you know what is best

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 02 July 2009 12:58 PM
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apfear

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Originally posted by: OMS

Originally posted by: apfear



Originally posted by: OMS



Just pay the money to your LABC and then agree with them what your doing - would you still have these objections if you were building an extension or replacing thermal elements.




Planning permission I don't have a problem with. Paying someone for the privilege of improving something inside of my own house that affects only me, I do.




Don't be so stupid man - if it was only you then I couldn't care less but your legacy in the national estate affects other people doesn't it - if you don't meet building regs regarding the distance apart on stair bannisters for example it probably doesn't worry you as an adult - but the couple who move in with a small child a few years later have an immediate strangulation hazard because you feel that you know what is best



OMS


errrr....no

Why would I not meet building regs?
 02 July 2009 01:01 PM
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OMS

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Because you clearly feel that they do not apply to you and see no need to comply with them

As I said, the process is very simple, Part P allows for DIY work, inspection is generally at the discretion of your LABC officer and the fee is modest - what makes you so different

OMS

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Failure is always an option
 02 July 2009 01:54 PM
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normcall

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Even builders (from Bodgit and Run Ltd to Bovis Homes) actually have to comply with the Building Regulations and either notify LABC or have a private outfit inspect.
Pray tell how you are different.

-------------------------
Norman
 02 July 2009 03:41 PM
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unshockable

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Originally posted by: apfear
unshockable that is something else I will consider, I do have a few 'friend of the family' sparks, whether or not they carried on after this Part P stuff I am not sure, I will have to find out. One of those might be happy to sign off my work.


Apfear, as has been pointed out before, my English Language O-level was gained more by luck than judgement. I was not suggesting I was signing off the work of this client; I am not allowed to and do not need to.

On this forum some people have "an arrangement", which is clearly good for the first party if not for the second! Why on earth would someone take responsibility for work of dubious quality and possibly the tax on the putative job.

Your options are clear and not onerous. If you have such confidence in your work you have nothing to worry about. Please save your self from unnecessary and expensive mistakes by getting advise from people who do this regularly; why re-invent the wheel. That advice is best delivered on site and will pay dividends.

Part P is only a problem when someone needs a small notifiable job done; a new kitchen socket etc.

Good luck

Simon
 02 July 2009 03:52 PM
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Jaymack

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I think we're too lax in this country wrt part P infringers; or maybe not when the following copy post is read - there's a lot of it about, perhaps a sign of the times when people want work done and get the bodgerski brigade. This is a post from a USA forum at today's date, I wonder how they deal with them: -

Quote
This may be a touchy subject, but has anyone else had to step up the policing of their area in regards to handymen and sidejobbers doing installations without permits? I know times are tough and believe me, I wish I didn't have to spend money on contractors insurance, bonds, registration fees, or my customers having to pay for permits. But the fact is it's the law. In the past I've only had to turn in a handful of homeowners for not getting permits or having work done by unlicensed installers. But the last couple of months I've had to turn in over a dozen people. Has anyone else noticed a spike in the number of violations in their area?

Case in point: I recieved a call last night to look at a hot tub installation in the area. I made an appointment for this morning. When I got there a handyman service was already there and performing the installation. The homeowner apologized for not calling to cancel the appointment. I asked if he had a permit. All I got back was a blank stare. I asked the handyman if he was licensed and registered in the municipality to do electrical installations. He admitted he was not. I have no choice but to call on Monday and turn him in.


Regards
 02 July 2009 04:05 PM
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OMS

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Well if the guy is any good, they give him a job with Halliburton and then send him to Iraq.

I could see that working here but only if local or national codes require the use of approved contractors first - and who is going to run that register, who is actually competent, what criteria are employed
etc etc - more regulation is not neccessarily a good thing as the example proves.

Besides, its not a very British thing is it

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Failure is always an option
 02 July 2009 07:57 PM
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whjohnson

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Is there a way of proving to one of these self-appointed inspectors that I am not an idiot and more than capable of wiring a house up?


Yes there is; Use old coloured (red/black) cable.
Don't notify LABC, and don't tell anyone what you are doing.
Fit a split-load 16th ed consumer unit.

Backdate any certs you produce to pre-Jan 2005.
Mind you - over 90% of the UK Domestic dwelling stock has no paperwork at all.
If anyone asks any questions, tell them it was all 'like that when I bought the house'.

Selling the house? Tell the solicitor that no work has been carried out during your tenure to the best of your knowledge and that you are not an electrician.
***** covered, and money saved.



Job sorted.

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 02 July 2009 08:08 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: OMS
I could see that working here but only if local or national codes require the use of approved contractors first - and who is going to run that register, who is actually competent, what criteria are employed
etc etc - more regulation is not neccessarily a good thing as the example proves.
Besides, its not a very British thing is it

Not that British matters any more, lost the plot a long time in the electrical trade with the dimunition of skills due to the plethora of DI's and Europeans. There has always been a case IMO; for the establishment of licensing for the various skill categories of persons in the electrical trade, the governing body should be non-profit making as I see it, it should be national and perhaps under the umbrella of the IET; with a board made up of some permanent and some rotating members, elected from the ranks. This will dispense with the existing multiple duplicity of efforts to achieve a common aim. It will never happen though since the die is cast, we have to shuffle along with the current, fragmented malaise - Pity.

Another bone of contention as far as I am concerned is the annual assessments thought necessary by the players, I don't know which organisation dreamt this Lulu up, it is inflationary, counter productive and particularly so for a one man band; it only seems to justify jobs for the bhoyos. Which other organisation in the country requires an annual assessment? I've read somewhere that there are moves to increase this time interval, the motivation for this is not clear to me; and I wonder what the effects will then be on the annual fee structure.

I would be interested to see the books of all the players, especially the NICEIC since the introduction of DI's, do they have an open book policy? Does any of the players?


Regards
 02 July 2009 08:21 PM
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GeoffBlackwell

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Well if you want to see their books simply view their web site. The 2007 accounts can be downloaded and the Annual Statement is on the ESC web site.

Regards

geoff Blackwell
 02 July 2009 08:44 PM
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ChrisGilbert

Posts: 136
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Originally posted by: apfear
Originally posted by: ChrisGilbert I tried to give you some useful advice. Having access to calibrated equipment is somewhat different from knowing how to do the tests and understand the results. I have helped the odd know-it-all with elec eng degress and years of DIY-ing their own electrics who rapidly realised there is more to doing a re-wire and consumer unit change to the Wiring and Buildings Regs than they ever realised and were grateful for my saving them lots of time and wasted money; they also learnt some new skills and enjoyed it, and didn't have to buy a number of tools needed to do the job.
Wow, so unless I pay someone lots of money I can't understand equipment readouts? Don't be daft. I really despair at the mentality of people at times. We're soon going to need a qualified person to blow up our bike tyres.
I really despair of your attitude and tone in replying. I hope you learn by the mistakes I suspect you might well make in your venture. Enough said I think!
 03 July 2009 03:07 PM
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apfear

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Just to make it clear - I do support a common standard of all work, electrical, heating, building, whatever. I do not support the self perpetuating industry that has sprung up to oversee it all. It is important to have a mechanism for ensuring work is done to standard, especially in the more public places, but what we've got now seems to function as a money printing and job protecting mechanism.

What I despair at is persons on this forum, who have never met me and have no idea of my capabilities, mostly fall into the "if you're not qualified you don't know what you're doing" circle-jerk.

That's like saying someone who hasn't passed A Level Mathematics can't do complex calculus, or someone without a First Aid Certificate can't put a bandage on.

It's not just electricians though, it's so many sectors of British trade and industry. I also find you get it more from city/town types. People in the country are looking to help one-another, seemly in contrast to those in the towns and cities who are trying to put each other down and get one over each other. Quite odd really. I'm pleased I live in the country.

Thanks for your reply whjohnson - probably the most sensible suggestion yet, and what all this deserves.
 03 July 2009 03:23 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: apfear
Just to make it clear - I do support a common standard of all work, electrical, heating, building, whatever. I do not support the self perpetuating industry that has sprung up to oversee it all. It is important to have a mechanism for ensuring work is done to standard, especially in the more public places, but what we've got now seems to function as a money printing and job protecting mechanism.
What I despair at is persons on this forum, who have never met me and have no idea of my capabilities, mostly fall into the "if you're not qualified you don't know what you're doing" circle-jerk.
That's like saying someone who hasn't passed A Level Mathematics can't do complex calculus, or someone without a First Aid Certificate can't put a bandage on.
It's not just electricians though, it's so many sectors of British trade and industry. I also find you get it more from city/town types. People in the country are looking to help one-another, seemly in contrast to those in the towns and cities who are trying to put each other down and get one over each other. Quite odd really. I'm pleased I live in the country.
Thanks for your reply whjohnson - probably the most sensible suggestion yet, and what all this deserves.


Free loading philosophy. Let's help you out then, what are the supply characteristics of the installation you intend to work on?

Regards
 03 July 2009 04:12 PM
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apfear

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Free loading is only free loading if it is one-way traffic.

"You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" would be the appropriate idiom.

See also: just being nice and friendly.

The supply is your standard domestic single phase mains supply with PME, but so far I am happy I know how to proceed with anything I have planned. It's just overcoming the obstacle of Part P / self certifying.
 03 July 2009 05:02 PM
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Martynduerden

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Originally posted by: Jaymack


I would be interested to see the books of all the players, especially the NICEIC since the introduction of DI's, do they have an open book policy? Does any of the players?


All company accounts are in the public domain weather they like it or not.

-------------------------
Regards

Martyn.

Only a mediocre person is always at their best



www.electrical contractors uk.com
 03 July 2009 05:36 PM
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Paul1966

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Originally posted by: whjohnson
Yes there is; Use old coloured (red/black) cable.


Even that isn't necessary, since brown/blue was on the market before Part P came into force.

Don't notify LABC, and don't tell anyone what you are doing.


Which is exactly what I would do. There's a statute of limitations on this anyway, so after a certain, relatively short, period of time the council can take no action against breaches of the building regulations anyway. It used to be 6 months, although on a quick search I found a proposal document from 2007 suggesting that the government planned to increase that period to 2 years. Whether it ever passed into law, I don't know.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Looking at renovating a house and avoiding Part P as best as I can

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